Paramond — an extreme display serif

Thomas Phinney

Although I am used to having two different slopes for acute accents (for about 15 years now), I find the degree of difference in the top example … a bit excessive. I would be curious to hear from some Polish typographers what they think of it.

Christian Thalmann

Well, I do have a Polish localization. 

Christian Thalmann

Hmmm, Cormorant's /Germandbls/ has been bugging me for a while. I finally made a new version (below).

Christian Thalmann

More of the new:

peggo (Pedro González)

This whole design process is being as huge as amazing.
I don't know the rest of humans, but according to what I'm used to solving for Capital eszett (Germanbls) that follows this model, it seems contains too much air inside of it, just because I tend to keep thinking of its shape as just the ligature between "ſ" (longs) and "ʒ" (the old german sharp z), probably you already knew this and I'm not telling that looks wrong, or not beauty, just trying to not being distracted too much because of that internal amount of white (or kind of little spot of light), not sure if I make myself understandable, maybe something close to this idea:

Christian Thalmann

I personally believe the open counter is one of the main features that make a good /Germandbls/ recognizable, readable, and stately enough to hold its ground among the other capitals. A hectic inner zigzagging one of the main reasons I dislike so many published designs. I'm afraid you're not going to convince me of the opposite.

(Objectively, the counter space of my design is comparable to that of /U/, and smaller than /O/, so I'm not sure why it should be distracting.)

Craig Eliason

Christian Thalmann said:

(Objectively, the counter space of my design is comparable to that of /U/, and smaller than /O/, so I'm not sure why it should be distracting.)

Maybe because the zigzagging of the right side suggests this is a two-counter glyph (albeit open), and thus also comparable to E or B not just O or U. Should you conceive of the interior space as two stacked counters? (To be clear, I’m not arguing the letter should be as narrow as EBSP etc. )

Christian Thalmann

Should you conceive of the interior space as two stacked counters?

I don’t think I should! It’s the primary distinction between B and Germandbls. 

peggo (Pedro González)

Christian Thalmann said:

Should you conceive of the interior space as two stacked counters?

I don’t think I should! It’s the primary distinction between B and Germandbls. 

A helpful design-criteria (or decision criteria) is taking the more similar shapes, in this case, "R" and "B" (which is not the same as "R&B" haha, just a musical joke.. xD) as a reference at least you could try a comparison with the proportion of those letters instead of "U" one, then, evaluate which option will perform better.

The bigger judge always will not be the designer itself but the final user, so you can offer Beta testers, in order to get more accurate feedback on those specific aspects.

Christian Thalmann

I think it's dangerous to use R and B as models for Germandbls. It promotes the kinds of designs that I'm actively trying to avoid. The less Germandbls has in common with B, the better.

The bigger judge always will not be the designer itself but the final user, so you can offer Beta testers, in order to get more accurate feedback on those specific aspects.

That's certainly a good idea. However, the concept of Germandbls is still so fresh that its mold hasn't hardened yet, and one can still try to shape that mold. I have a pretty distinct picture in mind of what I consider a good Germandbls, and it deviates significantly from what many typefaces offer. I'd rather use my designs to try to nudge the consensus of usage in the «right» direction than going the other way, especially since the current usage is still very disorganized and often badly thought through.

Rafael Cases

Christian Thalmann said:

I think it's dangerous to use R and B as models for Germandbls. It promotes the kinds of designs that I'm actively trying to avoid. The less Germandbls has in common with B, the better.

The bigger judge always will not be the designer itself but the final user, so you can offer Beta testers, in order to get more accurate feedback on those specific aspects.

That's certainly a good idea. However, the concept of Germandbls is still so fresh that its mold hasn't hardened yet, and one can still try to shape that mold. I have a pretty distinct picture in mind of what I consider a good Germandbls, and it deviates significantly from what many typefaces offer. I'd rather use my designs to try to nudge the consensus of usage in the «right» direction than going the other way, especially since the current usage is still very disorganized and often badly thought through.

How would you assess the historical usage of the capital /Germandbls?  I see the double s as a ligature between the initial-medial /longs and the final /s (corresponds to modern day sigma in Greek).  Calligraphically, it makes sense to merge the /longs and /s together.  But in typeface design, if they are merged together, there is this little negative space and colour issue.  I know you're not satisfied with the /beta and the /B and /R treatment of negative spaces, but notan-wise, the treatment done by @peggo (Pedro González) in here looks more satisfactory.
I can see another option with the treatment...try curving the treatment of the zigzagged s.

Christian Thalmann

How would you assess the historical usage of the capital /Germandbls? 

Even the rare historical uses of capital eszett were recent enough to be agnostic of the eszett’s origins as a ligature (or long s with scribal mark, as the case may be). The present-day eszett is a letter, nothing more or less, and the capital eszett has no other job than to look like a capital version of that letter. 

Pedro’s suggestion looks like an axe wound; things like that are the main reason I’ve launched my awareness campaign for the Zürich form. You’re not going to change my mind about it. 

Rounding the right-hand structure would turn this into a Zehlendorf design. I do consider it a valid form, but it tends to feel a bit too fussy/swashy for most typefaces, including this one.