My text face wish list

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Comments

  • my critique was for the bold, right. It may have become better in the last sample, however, they still look a bit too martial to me. The upper and lower endings of [ ] and { } are too thick.

  • Christian ThalmannChristian Thalmann Posts: 1,655
    So should I add intermediate layers to keep the Regular at its previous level?
  • So should I add intermediate layers to keep the Regular at its previous level?
    I like the original regular, as of course the heavier brackets/braces are more distracting if drawn too heavy in the heavier weights.
  • Christian ThalmannChristian Thalmann Posts: 1,655
    With intermediate layers:

  • Jan, I find your points very interesting. I’m always interested in matters like you mention. Just for the records, Andron is intended (mainly) for scientific editing in the humanities in particular and, yes, it has italic small caps.
    I would be interested to give one or two of my typefaces a test run with a small piece of sample text, if you’d care to provide one.


  • André G. IsaakAndré G. Isaak Posts: 576
    I still regularly encounter text typefaces coming from renowned designers and foundries with improperly drawn diacritics in letters of the Polish alphabet.  Common offenders include generally-off-looking stroke in /ł and well-drawn, but improperly-centred kreskas.
    I’m curious about the above. I know that the kreska is usually steeper than the acute accent, but does it have differing placement rules as well?
  • Jan PietkiewiczJan Pietkiewicz Posts: 15
    edited May 20
    Andreas, I'm well-aware of your great work on Andron and I will definitely consider it for my future projects (especially if I'm ever trusted with a book that could make generous use of its multi-script capabilities). I will try to come up with a sample text that could serve as a crash test for all my requirements, but this will take me some time. The samples you provided are of course very promising.

    I’m curious about the above. I know that the kreska is usually steeper than the acute accent, but does it have differing placement rules as well?
    I'm not sure what constitutes the mainstream opinion among the Polish type specialists in 2021, but personally I'm perfectly happy with kreskas just as steep as acute accents. What I do consider unacceptable, however, are kreskas that seem to precede or run away from their letters (i.e. ones that are positioned too far to the left or to the right from the optical center). It's very possible that the typefaces that (in my estimation) suffer from this issue are characterised by the same treatment of a-acute, e-acute etc., but it's the Polish letters I look at in the first instance. Later I will try to provide some examples.


    For an additional piece of trivia, I just recalled that an editor friend of mine recently showed me a fragment of a highly complex text where it would be necessary to distinguish roman slashes from italic ones. This runs counter to advice I encountered in many places, according to which italic slashes should not be made any more slanted than their roman counterparts.
  • André G. IsaakAndré G. Isaak Posts: 576
    I'm not sure what constitutes the mainstream opinion among the Polish type specialists in 2021, but personally I'm perfectly happy with kreskas just as steep as acute accents.

    Just for clarification, does “perfectly happy” mean you accept these equally, or that you prefer the more acute-like form?

    It’s my understanding (which admittedly might be wrong) that in Greek the steeper form of the tonos common in older fonts is now discouraged, and I’m wondering if the same sort of shift might be happening in Polish.
  • ok, I throw in my 2 pence. Please judge harshly:


  • Nick ShinnNick Shinn Posts: 1,767
    I tested my neighbour, a Polish author, on the design of /ł, with texts that featured either a vertically centred crossbar, or one centred on x-height—on a typeface with quite a small x-height. I didn’t tell her what the issue was, so it was “spot the difference”, which she couldn’t, and read both just fine.

    Admittedly, this is entirely anecdotal, but it did confirm my belief that such matters are of absolutely no significance to readers, only to type designers, and perhaps the occasional enlightened typographer!
  • Christian ThalmannChristian Thalmann Posts: 1,655
    edited May 21
    ok, I throw in my 2 pence. Please judge harshly:
    Good idea!

  • I now feel bad for derailing Joshua's thread with my questionable homegrown opinions about one particular topic - perhaps I should ask moderators to split the discussion about Polish diacritics into a new thread?

    Andreas and Christian, rest assured that I approached your samples ready to nitpick and that I found nothing at fault with the diacritics. The only critiques I could offer would come down purely to matters of style and personal preference (the ogoneks in Andreas's sans could perhaps be a little less flaccid; I'm slightly nervous about the tight space between the ogonek and the bowl of /a in Andron; I find the self-assured "true kreskas" in Cormorant almost intimidating, but that's just because I'm a very shy and reserved person; I do love, however, the proud and unapologetic ogoneks in Cormorant and Ysabeau). On the other hand, I would be ready to claim that the negative examples in my previous post really call for correction rather than just a user with a different taste than mine.


    Nick, I'm not at all surprised by the results of your experiment, but surely analogous claims could be made with reference to just about any matter of type-related detail? If the benchmark is whether a typical reader would proclaim that a given piece of typography "reads just fine", most of the subtle distinctions we engage in making on this very forum must appear downright absurd. I don't doubt for a moment that any old /ł will be read as ł by the vast majority of readers (in the thread about kreskas I referenced above Adam Jagosz makes a supposition that your statistical Pole wouldn't even complain about a kreska based on a grave accent); I do make it my business, however, to try and choose only the very best /łs on offer (even if by doing so I demonstrate that quite possibly I'm too "enlightened" for my own good).
  • Christian ThalmannChristian Thalmann Posts: 1,655
    Thanks for your insight, Jan! :grimace:
    I find the self-assured "true kreskas" in Cormorant almost intimidating

    If it's any consolation, they're not even different from Cormorant's regular acutes. It's part of Cormorant's Stainless Steel Victorian Murderspider aesthetics. :smirk:

  • Nick ShinnNick Shinn Posts: 1,767
    edited May 21
    I suppose a comparison to the height of the /ł crossbar would be that of the f’s.
    I was surprised, when teaching type design to a class of university graphic design students, how many of them placed the f crossbar way down low, clearly wrong, not at x-height.

    But then again, Hermann Zapf did the same thing in Palatino, and Roger Excoffon in Antique Olive. In both these examples, it works for the typeface. Also, nobody dare question the Masters!

    So, rather than a set pattern applicable to all typefaces, I prefer a general principle: What I consider when designing /ł is the adjacent characters in the particular font I’m working on, especially when it’s followed by /u or /y, e.g. Batłtykiem, odwołuje. Again, it’s not an issue for readers (who have dealt with the keming of r_t in Helvetica for decades), but I do try to avoid unintentional ligatures!


  • Jan PietkiewiczJan Pietkiewicz Posts: 15
    edited May 21
    Nick, thank you for your very welcome warning against the blind orthodoxy of universal patterns – it certainly made me reconsider the strength of some of my judgments as expressed in this thread.

    I now realize that while I was trying to make a very similar point with regard to kreskas (the angle as such doesn't matter and it's not necessary to follow any rule regulating it; what matters is how the kreskas hang together with everything else), apparently for some reason I'm eager to make the crossbar in /ł my hill to die on. I generally tend to assume that type designers know what they are doing, and for instance I think I understand what was the intended effect of the low crossbar in Berling Nova; still, because of the said crossbar I wasn't able to bring myself to use this particular typeface in a recent project of mine and my (over-trained) eye still stumbles on its /łs whenever I read a book typeset in it. Similarly, I simply had to ask for the custom replacement for the /ł shown above – not because I didn't find it pretty, but because I deeply felt it was wrong and that some imaginary opinionated reader could accuse me of using an uncalled-for non-conventional form of the letter in my work. Despite all such anxieties and prejudices on my part, I absolutely have to concede that in general there's obviously much more space for flexibility and experimentation with any letterform than I might have suggested before.


  • Ramiro EspinozaRamiro Espinoza Posts: 816
    Hi there,
    This is gentle reminder to stay on the original topic. If an interesting tangent subject is being discussed, please open a new thread for it.
    TIA.
  • Nick ShinnNick Shinn Posts: 1,767
    I wouldn’t say this is a tangent, it’s more of a specific granular discussion of what one person wishes for, for a specific kind of text work.

    Joshua originally presented his wish list, now we’re discussing details of Jan’s.
  • Ramiro EspinozaRamiro Espinoza Posts: 816
    edited May 25
    >> I wouldn’t say this is a tangent, it’s more of a specific granular discussion
    Maybe, but a member taking part in this debate mailed the moderators asking for our intervention and this is why I posted the reminder.
  • Nick ShinnNick Shinn Posts: 1,767
    Fair enough, but I have three “Agrees” to your one!

    (However, I do tend to go off on tangents.)
  • Fair enough, but I have three “Agrees” to your one!

    (However, I do tend to go off on tangents.)
    I also think this derails the original discussion Nick, not because it’s not relevant but because it’s mostly on the design of diacritics rather than the inclusion or exclusion of relevant glyphs.
  • Adam TwardochAdam Twardoch Posts: 478
    Great thread!
  • edited June 27
    This caused a problem because these brackets in CJK have a large blank space at their left (3008) and right (3009) sides to fulfill the square area of CJK characters. This doesn't work in math and computing notation, when the excessive space in not needed or desired.
    Both 3008 and 3009 should not fill the square area in CJK context when kerning or proportional variants are enabled, or in Korean.
    If 3008 and 3009 have proportional variants in a font, this is usually accessible through the 'palt' Proportional Alternate Widths feature which should be activated when the 'kern' feature is enabled or sometimes the 'pwid' Proportional Widths feature, which should activate the 'kern' feature itself instead.
    In some Korean fonts, the proportional glyphs are the default, since white space in half of the square area would look like a space, which would break Korean grammar as some word compounds are attached to other bracketed word compounds.

    So in theory they should have the appropriate shape as canonically equivalents of 2329 and 232A in those contexts, along with non CJK context. In practice, unfortunately that's often not the case.






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