Diversifying TypeDrawers

Bogdan Oancea

Too many sweeping generalizations make a discussion go nowhere, which makes it impossible to reach a definite agreement on any subject.

So… would the women (or anybody) please answer the clear questions asked by Chris Lozos? Otherwise this discussion is getting ridiculously long and tiresome. (Wait, it already did… 4 pages!)

Chris Lozos' questions again:

Are women being attacked at type conferences? Is it by type related men?
What are the circumstances we should watch out for to be in a position to help?
Can we organize an escort plan to be sure women are not so open to abuse?
Can we get together and devise a defense plan?
Are women prevented from becoming part of the type industry due to gender?
How does this manifest itself?
Are there organizations or companies that seem to show this behaviour? Can we boycott them?
Are women in the type industry being overlooked for promotion? Can we devise a plan to help them?
Is there a pressure for sexual favors in the workplace?

John, sure, suppose a particular act someone calls out is not actually racist. Would it really be so bad for me to just not argue with them this one time?

Yes, it's wrong to be so afraid to offend someone that you don't help them see when they are wrong, and maybe mature in the process. This "fear to offend" and exaggerated sensibility is getting ridiculous in our world today…

Nick Shinn

We all would rather discuss who is right/wrong than do anything.
That’s social media.

Many posts back I suggested practical, systemic actions that could be taken to increase female participation in type conferences and at typeDrawers.

We are designers, let’s design solutions, not obsess over the semantic nuances of rights vs. privileges, and who is most hard done by.

So tell me my suggestions are workable—or crap, in which case suggest something better.

Chris Lozos

Yes, Ramiro, I quite agree, all I am saying is that while we are hard looking at the privilege of "Men", let us not forget that Black Men" are also "Men" Hispanic Men are also Men, Gay Men are also men, Native American men are also men, Arabic men are also men, Transgender men are also men, Handicapped men are also men, Chronically ill men are also men.  Amputee Men are also men.  As long as we refuse to differentiate between all men and privileged men, we are perpetuating a stereotype and alienating potential allies. The truly privileged men are laughing at our petty squabble and enjoying how it takes us away from solving the real problem. Again, rather than pointing the finger at all "Men", let's all get together and define what we all can do to solve the problems that face all of us.  Inaction is to be complicit. Let's all act.

Yªssin Bªggªr

I am trying to understand, I am listening, I am supporting but none of that will solve the problem.

…
For some or all of the men in the industry to be sympathetic or accept that they are privileged is nice and all but all it does is make them look like nice guys.

Acknowledging privileges is not about sympathy. It is not about looking like a nice guy. That is YOUR perception.

It is about framing the problem properly. You cannot look for solutions before you understand the problem properly.

All your examples about finding practical solutions are about individual behavior. Understanding and acknowledging privileges is important because it shows you understand the problem it is not only about individual [sexist/racist/…] behavior, but structural, hence structural solutions are also needed.

Elizabeth Carey-Smith

We are answering all of your questions, you're just disagreeing with the answers.

Are women being discriminated against? Yes! 

And if TypeDrawers isn't the place to argue over semantics then I don't know where is. 

For the millionth and final time 'privileges' ≠ privilege. 

John Hudson

Yup, Victoria and Elizabeth, I don't at all disagree, and when I see or hear someone making an unreasonable claim I try to imagine what might have prompted them to do so, because reasonableness isn't always a reasonable assumption given the circumstances in which many people are forced to live.

I'm just wary of what sound like absolute statements, and there's a difference between saying 'I don't need to engage with this' and saying 'I have no grounds to on which to disagree with this'.

John Hudson

I want to draw a bit more attention to the article on privilege to which Elizabeth just linked, because it is really very good:
http://everydayfeminism.com/2014/09/what-is-privilege/

Yªssin Bªggªr

For the millionth and final time 'privileges' ≠ privilege. 

Sorry. I pluralized "privilege" with various types of privilege in mind (white, male, educated, …). Don't know if that really makes sense, english is not my usual language.

Chris Lozos

We are answering all of your questions, you're just disagreeing with the answers.

I just can't see how you have answered any of my questions.  I understand that bias for any reason is an integral part of our society and has been since the beginning of time.  I understand that our way of life is controlled by the privileged few.  I understand that there is a hierarchy of privilege. If I begin to understand that we are ALL in some way more privileged than some others, fine.  I understand that we need to redistribute the privilege so that it equally applies to everyone without putting ourselves as the model for others to follow.  I can agree that I have been more privileged [as you define it] than some others [but also less privileged than many others].  I also know that I am the only one who can know the degree of privilege I have been bequeathed ["walk a mile in another man's moccasins" Black Elk Speaks]. To my perception, that is damn little.  My question to you is [since I can't go back in time and donate my privilege to someone more needy than I was at the time] what can I concretely do about it now? As I said early on, I cannot change the past so please enlighten me as to I can change the present? Maybe I am just old and of no value to your cause but I don't think so and would like to hear what to do NOW. I would gladly surrender all of my privilage if everyone one else would do the same.  No oppressor will ever do this because it is in their nature to only take.  Tell me what to do now?

Jackson Showalter-Cavanaugh

Are women being attacked at type conferences? Is it by type related men?

Yes. Yes. Want a specific first-hand example? Last Typecon my partner and myself were talking in a small group after the quiz. A "type related man", one actually participating on this thread actually, joined the conversation and the topic shifted to something type-specific. At this point he turned to my partner and another woman and said something like, "okay, ladies, it's time for the men to talk about type." No shit. This stuff happens all the time. 

Chris Lozos

The assumption that we are arguing about something in the past also completely misses the point. This is very much present-day America.

That is not at all what I meant. I am quite aware that bigotry and bias are alive and well in America today.  What I meant was that I could not go back in time and prevent the murder of Dr King, or the MyLai Massacre [even though I was just 3 miles from it when it happened]. To look for a way to do this would not be of service.  What WOULD be of service is to address head on the individual problems that we do face TODAY. Let's get together and fix it instead of just nodding approval that it is out there?

Bogdan Oancea

Not trying to come up with excuses for him, but maybe the guy was just trying to be funny?

Chris Lozos

"okay, ladies, it's time for the men to talk about type."

Did you confront him then and there? I hope so.

Nick Shinn

I'm not keeping tally, but the men seem to be un-diversifying this thread, as is their wont.

We are all well-meaning and just want to understand our privilege better, demonstrate how empathetic we are, and explain the issues to those of our peers who don’t get it, as we have been encouraged to.

But we won’t shut up.

That is why I have suggested caps and incentives.

Already there are limits to the time during which one can edit one’s post, so why not a limit to the amount men can post?

And/or, rewards for women who reach a certain post target?

Perhaps you think I’m being silly, but I sincerely believe that it’s impossible to get men to back off from opinionating by attempting to educate us and asking us to behave better—we will just query why we need to be asked.

Michael Clark

Opining, Nick?

Chris Lozos

OK, Nick. I will shut up until I hear an actual attempt at strategy to solve the problem--so far not a hint.

Dai Foldes

The reason the only people left speaking here are men is that this is not a welcoming environment for discussing sexism. 

OK, Nick. I will shut up until I hear an actual attempt at strategy to solve the problem

Yes, good. The trick, for all of us, is to stay shut up afterwards as well. Everyone should work on their grasp of the concept of privilege on their own time. The people who want to discuss solutions will find channels where they aren't constantly sidetracked by men "playing devil's advocate", describing their own struggles, and trying to debate rudimentary principles. This thread never got past the basics and now it's dead.

https://twitter.com/BaldCondensed/status/633930948481019904

...thinking back on just this thread, I can see my own biases at work. The posts that really stand out in my memory are the ones from Tom and Ray (ha! Car Talk!) rather than, say, Nina and Elizabeth...

Like Yves, Chris Lewis, and absolutely me too, we need to fight our hideously instinctive preference to have a man (Jon Stewart, if at all possible) validate the things marginalized people are saying perfectly well on their own. Clearly there was not enough listening to women in this thread ostensibly about listening to women. Better luck next time!

Ray Larabie

Why shouldn't you question the merits of someone's offense? Regardless of your right to argue, there are times in life when you shouldn't because it's impolite.

If you're going to question the specific merits of someone being offended, it not harmless. You end up derailing the conversation since, presumably, you're expecting a response. Questioning their offense implies that they're required to justify it so they're pretty much compelled to get into it with you.

An ensuing argument always happens when some registers offense. Those people might feel that this ruins the discussion. How many times do these people have discussions turn into a discussion huge argument about equality until...

A: they stop mentioning it
B: they stop coming back

Your demand for justification of their offense ends up shutting them up and pushing them away. Other people see what happens and follow suit.

This is not about not about your rights. Let's say you're at a funeral. You have a right to ask the widow anything you like. But you're tactful and you know that there are certain things you just don't say. Or maybe you're talking to a person from another religion. You don't point out how their bible story doesn't quite add up. There are lots of situations in life where you just need to keep your mouth shut out of politeness, decency and for the sake of social harmony. Most of us understand this. We just naturally know when it's okay to demand answers and when to back off and say, "maybe this is one of those times when I should listen."

It's never a non-sequitur that people are offended by, is it? It's not like you're posting a picture of a potato salad and someone says "that's racist!". If you really can't figure out why something you said was offensive, I don't believe you. But okay, let's say you really, really don't know: ask someone else. Don't derail the thread with your defensiveness because chances are, everyone else knows exactly why it was offensive.

I've been there. Lucky for me, these sites are no longer around, but hoooo boy sometimes a joke doesn't land the way you imagine it will. It sucks when you get called out on it and it's up to you what you decide to do with it. But knowing is always better.

If we could make an environment where people don't have to be afraid, I think this place would be more welcoming.

I think it should be part of the site rules. I want people to be able to flag "why was that offensive?" as abuse without destroying the thread. I also think you shouldn't complain about being flagged as abuse or for disagrees.. at least not in the thread itself. Take it up with the moderators if you have to or just take your lumps.

Bogdan Oancea

Ray, I think what you're saying in the first part of your response is a classic case of introducing a supplemental condition in the mix ("But what if you're at a funeral… would you be so insensitive to say such and such?"), then extending the obvious conclusion ("No, I wouldn't") for this special situation to all "normal" situations.
Well, of course if such a person who's unjustifiably complaining about racism just lost someone in the family I would refrain from irritating them by saying "Nah, having to wait in line isn't racist, man! Grow up!". But other than special situations like these, I think it's oversensitive to not call out people on their oversensitivity.

Ray Larabie

The intent was to illustrate that there are times when it's within your rights, but not socially okay to ask questions.

Lila Symons

The reasons why underrepresented groups and women want more diversity in the type community is pretty simple: they want a chance to participate without being undermined and disrespected.

I know this discussion is probably uncomfortable for many. At times it can be overwhelming figuring out what to fix first.

What are some things you can do to make underrepresented groups and women feel welcome online and in real life? Here’s a few suggestions:

1. Check your ego.
I know this is easier said than done because we are a passionate bunch with so much to say, but just do it.

2. Check your privilege.

3. Don’t be offensive to underrepresented groups and women.

4. If you said something sexist, racist, offensive or acted like a jerk, apologize and actually change your behavior for the better so it doesn't happen again.

5. Be a good ally. Don’t upstage the very people you are supporting.

6. Help, not Hinder

If you have worked hard and navigated through this industry ethically and have given back, awesome.

If you are one of those people who hasn’t gotten their success that way, or are a person of privilege, now’s your opportunity to be better and contribute to the community.

In order to bring in more awesome people, we have to be welcoming to new voices and open to new points of view.

Bogdan Oancea

The intent was to illustrate that there are times when it's within your rights, but not socially okay to ask questions.

Glad you're explicitly saying that. Some people would take what you wrote as the general rule, not as the exception.

But this oversensitivity problem isn't the main thing… what i would ask is this: after many decades of feminism, aren't there books(?) to teach women how to best react to "bullies" and situations like the ones described by Dyanne Sawyer? How to outsmart them and put them in their place? Frankly, I'm surprised the main advice here is just "Accept there is a problem" and "Be on our side" – most of us here accept there is a problem already (although like I said, some people are more sensitive than others, and some problems are imaginary). Anyway, since obviously a "bully" won't kindly take your advice to be nice, inclusive, to not be offensive and to even apologize (come on…), how do you react best to change such people for the better or at least change situations? Are there helpful books like "Bullies" by Ben Shapiro?

Ray Larabie

We're not powerless. The general public can't post here without an account. We have moderators that can deal with problems, effectively silencing people if they feel they need to. The rest of us can bury posts with abuse flags. 

"Accept there is a problem" and "Be on our side" put into action.

It's not like a fanciful pipe dream that we'll never be able to accomplish. All it takes is a little vigilance, the collective ability to identify the types of posts we don't want here and a couple of mouse clicks.

Ben Blom

What’s missing here in most suggestions for change, is SMARTness.

For instance, what to do with the suggestion “Check your ego”? I guess most contributors here have a bigger than average ego. Should they not speak their mind? Should we be less welcoming to them, in order to be more welcoming to new voices and new points of view? What about big female egos?

For those who feel I acted like a jerk when writing the above lines, I do apologize.

Robin Mientjes

SMARTness? Ray just mentioned it, Indra, Dai, Jackson, Elizabeth have all been saying it: we can take action, by calling out unacceptable behaviour. The forum technology supports it, and our ability to speak up enables it.

Even assuming nobody here is to blame for any misogyny, racism, or any other form of discrimination, does not automatically remove the problem or the responsibility. Like in the subway, when you see something, say something. Need more specific, measurable, assignable, realistic suggestions? Because that one is pretty solid.

Victoria Rushton

Folks, first thing, I have very little patience for what you think is an "oversensitivity problem." People have been dealing with systemic oppression since forever, having their rights withheld and lives taken away because of privileges they were born lacking, while privileged people either could never see these imbalances, or actively condoned them. And when the underprivileged finally try to speak up about it, the privileged are like, "what no, everything's fine, you're being too sensitive!" Because it's always been fine for them. Enough already. Shutting up for a minute to allow for someone else who historically hasn't had a chance to speak will not hurt you. Surrendering your desire to say whatever you want to and underprivileged person in a given moment to allow them the general comfort you've had life is probably a good idea. Can we be done with whining about oversensitivity and "imaginary" problems yet? This is like square one of being an ally. 

Okay, phew. Now: the rest of square one is understanding privilege. Various of us, men and women, have been shouting ourselves internet-hoarse to explain what privilege is, and the reason the discussion is so long is because it is clearly not getting through to everyone. We're not half bad explainers, and we've provided links to good resources, and still. 

I get it, it's an uncomfortable topic. I understand that the majority of people on this thread genuinely want to help. Here's the thing though, we cannot have a conversation about actionable measures to combat sexism until we're all on the same page about privilege, and judging by the way we're here quibbling about freedom of speech, telling women how to deal with "bullies" (SYSTEMIC OPPRESSION IS NOT THE SAME AS BULLYING), and general derailing of the conversation to talk about dudes' personal experiences, we are not. 

I can't do this for you, as Dai said, everyone should work on their grasp of this concept on their own time. For your convenience I've compiled all the educational links posted in this thread, plus some more. Read and understand the problem (which may mean read more than once!) all of them before you come here to talk actionable measures. 

White Privilege: Unpacking the Invisible Backpack
I, Racist
Straight White Male: The Lowest Difficulty Setting There Is
Geek Feminism Resources for Allies
A Primer on Privilege: What it is and what it isn't
If I Admit That Hating Men is a Thing, Will You Stop Turning It Into a Self-Fulfilling Prophecy? 
Ain't I a Type Nerd Too? Thoughts on Feminism and Type
Women's Voices in Type, On- and Offstage
On a Plate (this one's a comic, y'all!)

Lila in her comment has also outlined some really solid reminders of what we can do as individuals. If you think these requests are simple and we all already do these things, I assure you they are not. We hate repeating ourselves on the basics, but we have to. 

Nicole Dotin

From my personal experiences running a foundry and being a women, I'll add one small thing you can do.

Don't assume.

But, as an example, I'll turn it around for you and I hope this resonates with the fathers out there.

When my son was born (he's 1 1/2 so this is a recent), many of the nurses would look only at me when they gave helpful instructions on how to care for our new baby. Keep in mind my partner was standing about 2 feet away, equally interested. They made an assumption the he wouldn't be that involved in care-taking so they didn't bother addressing him.

A small thing, yes. But these assumptions get replicated in numerous contexts (how many times do you see fathers as the target market for children's products? rarely). I don't remember how my partner felt, but I was annoyed that they not only assumed what his role would be — and excluded him — but what my role at home was as well. Doesn't make for warm and fuzzy feelings.

So, just stop assuming ... stop assuming what I'm interested in because I'm a women. Stop assuming what my role in my business is and what decisions I do or do not make because I am a women. Stop assuming that I'm 'oversensitive' because I'm a woman. Stop assuming that my male partner designed my typefaces and not me. Stop, please.

Ben Blom

I am a human being. Please do not assume that my skin color, my gender, my age, my nationality, my weight, what I do in my bedroom, whether I have children or not, whether I have a disability or not—is relevant for participating here.

For those who feel I acted like a jerk when writing the above lines, I do apologize.

Chris Lozos

I hope this resonates with the fathers out there

When our first child was tiny, I had her strapped on my chest proudly in her Snugly and went out for a walk.  Beaming Papa that I was, I walked past two young men who laughed at me and made jokes about me. Sure, I was angry at them, but inside I knew there was no happier moment so far in my life than having my squirming baby so close to me.  Those guys didn't know how wonderful I felt.

John Hudson

James Todd wrote:

It’s not that hard to understand: as Indra’s avatar says “don’t be a dick”. We all know what that means.

I've been thinking about this, wondering whether a practical code of conduct is simply reduceable to 'Don't be a dick/arsehole/jerk'. There's two problems I see with this, and the first is the assumption that 'We all know what that means'. The trouble with any generalised negative admonition — 'don't', rather than 'do' — is that it will tend to invite debate about what does and does not constitute dick behaviour, which invites all kinds of excuses or exceptions: 'I'm not being a dick, I'm just brusque; that's just how I am, so stop trying to censor me.' I used to get very frustrated on Typophile when I'd see someone take the time to compose a long and thoughtful contribution to a discussion, only to see a certain other person dismiss it with a one line comment. I figured that person was being disrespectful, not only to the person who had spent more than five seconds to engage in discussion, but also to the discussion and everyone else involved in it. Did that person understand he was being a dick, though? I doubt it. And maybe other people didn't think he was, but I did.

The other problem I see with the 'Don't be a dick' admonition is that it really suggests a pretty minimal level of acceptable behaviour, and can't we aspire to something more than that? I'm going to suggest that the first and summary clause of a Typedrawers code of conduct might be 'Be kind', because that not only encourages a higher level of behaviour but also is harder to dodge when we ask ourselves 'Am I being kind?' rather than 'Am I being a dick?' And kindness doesn't mean not disagreeing — nor disagreeing vigourously —, but an attitude of care to the person and thoughts of the other person, and reasonably expecting the same in response.

This, I understand, is a highly privileged suggestion: I spend much of my time in the company of very kind people into whose care I am happy to put my dignity, feelings and ideas, and don't have to deal with many dicks. But as one of yesterday's links pointed out, privilege is something we have that we should want everyone else to have.