Diversifying TypeDrawers
Comments
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Hi "Chris Lozos", nice to meet you. To respond to your comment, I'm gonna summarize in my own words a contemporary internet campaign that others may already be familiar with. Here goes:
Even though not all men are guilty of or responsible for sexist acts, all (yes, ALL) women have, at some point in their lives, whether it was overt or whether it was subtle enough to fly under their radar, been on the receiving end of sexism.
You can be a man who is mindful to never, ever mistreat women in any way. You can personally be perfect like that, but still be afforded many privileges that women are not, due to deeply rooted systemic issues that automatically favor men.
I am not about "punishing," as you say, individual men for happening to be men. I am about recognizing that there are imbalances in our world that favor men, and seeking to correct them. No one is generalizing that all men are terrible people, this is not true. The majority of men I know personally are intelligent and compassionate, which is exactly why hold them to a high standard: I expect them to admit to their privilege, recognize the pervasiveness of sexism in our society, and to take arms against it however possible. Women will not get anywhere without your help.24 -
Over the last five days the discussions on this board have become significantly more interesting and valuable. I'm attributing that entirely to the wave new participants who have come here specifically because we are addressing this topic. Just about all of them have added a much needed shot of new energy, ideas, and perspectives to a place that was, frankly, predicable and stale.
Or, to put it pangrammatically:
It's just crazy how quickly a big influx of women improved things!
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I expect them to admit to their privilege
I understand and agree with most of what you say. I must interject one clarification. All men have NOT been privileged. I have received none of the "goodies" that the privileged men [and there sure are some, think Trump Roman] have received. The only thing I have ever received in my life that was due to my gender was an offer that I could not refuse from our country--an all expenses paid trip to Vietnam in 1967-1968. The "privileged" few white males who sent us there got to stay safe at home while the rest of us were getting shot at or having our minds destroyed by the true horror of man at his worst. Go look at how many homeless and mentally ill men got that way courtesy of one war or another. The privileged of Our country have thrown them all in the trash and ignored them throughout time. Other than having an occasional parade on Memorial day, nothing is done to help them by those who sent them. The only ones that help them are the poor bastards [men and women] with compassion for what was done to them. The most help have come from the poorest and least privileged of our society. Widows and children of dead veterans do more than there fare share. What has Dick Cheney done?
I do promise to keep doing what I have always done, support everyone equally and stand up for the underprivileged. I would be more than happy to do what I can for women in the type industry who have experienced poor treatment. Hopefully, we can get some actual examples to act on if the women come forward and tell their story.
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Chris, first let me say, I sympathize with a lot of what you're saying. There's no question that a patriarchal society is bad for men as well as women. The draft is a prime example of that. Being looked down on if you want to stay home and raise your kids is something I've seen for my friends who've made that choice. But even those of us who have experienced one (or both!) of these things have had gobs of privilege in the rest of our lives.
Nobody is saying that the structure of society is nothing but good for men. But if you honestly think that as a male 50+ in the USA you haven't been the recipient of privilege, I will have to politely say I don't buy it. Privilege isn't just actively getting something because you're a guy—it is the absence of all the crap women have had to put up with.
For anyone who hasn’t read it, Peggy McIntosh’s piece on "white privilege: unpacking the invisible knapsack” is a must-read explanation of what this “privilege” thing really means. It is about race, but I think any bright person can easily get how much of it applies to gender, sexual preference, and other areas of privilege.
(My only critique is that McIntosh conflates socio-economic status with race; while correlated, they are not identical, and those white folks who grew up seriously poor may rightly take issue with a number of her specific examples. Yet that doesn’t invalidate the rest of it.)11 -
Reconnecting after two weeks of holiday, I was somewhat surprised by this thread.
When I was working as a graphic designer and now as type designer, I encountered some very interesting female designers, thinkers, illustrators, clients etc. To be honest, it never occured to me that they would have encountered the problems as described here or in others blogs. Not because I was being blind for it, but I felt like we had respect for each others being, skills and experiences.
I think this is an important discussion, because it will open our eyes and give us some insight on other people's perspective and experience, thus broaden our view.
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@Thomas. I grew up a poor white kid in a mixed race and ethnicity inner-city neighborhood so that might explain my personal experience. You are free to "not buy it" but you have not lived my life nor I yours or the person you spoke of. All that I ask is that we quit generalizing so much. For instance, most Black men probably don't fit your model of privileged men, either. We have to get away from the stereo type that "Men do this or that" and assume we have lived all of their lives. I readily admit that I can't possibly know about what Women face today, but I will bet you that there is a broad spectrum of difference between them. Michelle Bachmann as opposed to the ladies who cleaned our hotel rooms at TypeCon.
The past is the past--rather than lament our culture's failings on things past and not related to the current state of affairs in typography in particular, what can we do about the situation in the type world today? This is something we can fix if we focus on the current problems and fix them before they also become part of the past. Can we start addressing today's issues by hearing from those who experience gender and race related issues that pertain to the type business in particular?
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…she was married to the genius, plus she drew some typefaces, too.
It was nice of Akira Kobayashi to deliver a short eulogy for Hermann Zapf at Typecon last week, but I was surprised he didn’t identify the woman in the photos with him. He may have assumed we all knew it was his wife, or forgotten to name her (it was an emotional moment for him).0 -
Perhaps Akira assumed that an audience of type geeks would surely know of her?
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Was it OK for me to call out Akira?
I sometimes think I should just never say anything, least of all my opinions.0 -
OMG, never have I seen so many negative things and lies cast upon someone's statement. I did an article on Gudrun… retouched the artwork she sent me with her permission because, she said, "I know I can trust you Michael!" I was merely saying that she ACHIEVED without ballyhoo! Simple enough for you people? Evidently not.
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I think for the sake of getting back to the original question in this thread, we should keep online privilege separate from real-life privilege. Regardless of the way you see people treated in real life, here on the internet, it's hell for some people while others get a free pass.
If you think there's no problem, I'll remind you: this forum, as civil as it is, exists in a hellscape called the internet. If you think everyone's entitled to voice their opinion...go look around at some other sites and see what it's like. Even if you're a white guy, you've probably been harassed or otherwise hurt by someone on the internet. You know it feels bad. Imagine that happening all the time. Are you really going to feel comfortable asking certain questions?
I've seen how forums change over time and you get a higher percentage of...I don't know what to call them. The kind of people who cause trouble in the comment section on YouTube videos. Jerks. Some of them get booted off quickly, others skirt the edge of offensiveness and hang on.
From my experience, one way of preventing a forum from turning into a steaming heap is for the members to be vigilant and downvote (flag) liberally.9 -
You know, the funny thing is I never thought of any of this as being "not diverse." I have plodded along with both male and female friends with no thought as to calligraphy/lettering/font design as being divisive or chauvinistic. At least my female counterparts never brought it up and we were very honest. We always enjoyed a good conversation and the only time it got contentious was when egos (both sexes) got the best of the group. But that was quickly tamped down. We are "blue collar workers dealing with letters instead of steel, or iron, or aluminum." Coding does not make you a superhero!
The funny thing is I just got an e-mail from RIT to participate in a book honoring Hermann Zapf. The piece I am submitting is more akin to the work Gudrun would have done!0 -
Perhaps Akira assumed that an audience of type geeks would surely know of her?
Akira seems to speak as succinctly as possible. I think he’s just a quiet person.
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Also, English is about his 4th language--wish I could say that.
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Michael, I believe your intentions are good but that doesn’t mean the impact of your words are the same.
I was merely saying that she ACHIEVED without ballyhoo!
To me, this sums up the problem. It assumes Gudrun was successful (which we could argue) on merit alone (which again, we could argue). The takeaway then is that the road to success is absolutely smooth with no obstacles as long as you’re willing to traverse it. In theory, I love this idea. I’m an American and this is our core philosophy.
But it’s just not true and when we keep saying that it is, we fail to recognize we have a problem that needs to be addressed. Women are not treated the same as men. They’re not given the same opportunities. They are perceived differently. There are real obstacles to their success. That doesn’t mean other people don’t have obstacles or that other people’s struggles aren’t important — they are. But, women’s struggles are real and we can’t help them succeed by telling them there isn’t a problem. And sometimes, you need a little ballyhoo to get the word out to people who don’t want to hear it.
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There in lies the rub. I was brought up in the 50's in America. My father was an absolute antithesis to the times. EQUALITY across the boards. So say what you will, but I have also instilled this in my children (girls, and one boy) and they have been undaunted, AND achieved, by the cultural norms. So needless to say I am unimpressed by screaming from the rooftops by "victims." P.s. my wife is beyond quite accomplished despite her sex. Her deceased sister was a huge force in Washington DC.
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Michael, I think it's wonderful you are raising your children to value equality. It's wonderful that they, along with the people you know personally, have achieved success. But I am genuinely curious: let's say some strange man gropes you at a conference and you don't like it. Would you not say anything about it, or do you think he should be disciplined in some way?4
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I was brought up in the 50's in America.
I grew up a poor white kid in a mixed race and ethnicity inner-city neighborhood
The major thing I keep noticing here (and elsewhere) is the assumption that by 'men' we mean 'you, individually.' Individuals can have great intentions, are kind people, good husbands, respectful, etc. That doesn't mean that we've achieved societal equality. I'm currently writing a piece that will hopefully help clarify what privilege means. This is not a personal attack. This is commentary about inequality. There is a massive difference.The past is the past--rather than lament our culture's failings on things past and not related to the current state of affairs in typography
The assumption that we are arguing about something in the past also completely misses the point. This is very much present-day America.
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Chris: Like Elizabeth, I never thought we were talking about the distant past. I still expect that you are using the word “privilege” in a narrower sense than some of us. But in any case, I am glad that you are interested to talk about the present and are willing to believe that various folks face assorted kinds of discrimination.
Unlike you, I come from an upper-middle-class background (even if we were very poor when I was a kid), so I don't have as strong a gut reaction to the “privilege” label. But I wasn’t really comfortable with it until I did more reading.0 -
Michael: Seems to me that the calligraphy/lettering end of things is more diverse than type design, fonts and typography.2
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It absolutely is Thomas. But it is fraught with the even worse "disability" ego/self absorption and the me, me, look at me problem. But I got into this as a result of the "examples" of Hermann and Gudrun as well as Fritz Poppl. The ladies that I know in the field (type) are very low profile and wonderfully talented. They, as I do, eschew the self promotion avenue. So I am sorry if I came off as ass… but I have to admit I loved all the troll/spam/abuse hits I got. Keeps it lively! And gives me something to worry about during my retirement years.
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Dyana, I am not a terrible looking man, but I got hit on in "Mid-Town" Kansas City constantly in my year down there. Only once did I smack one of the fellows. As to conference behavior that is totally unacceptable. You were not the only one aware of that ass's behavior, shame on those that let it pass… they are the worst offenders. Yes… scream loud and hard.
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I'm currently writing a piece that will hopefully help clarify what privilege means.
I look forward to reading that. I was struck when I first heard Utah Phillips on the subject* of privilege, especially because his own life and experiences are not what many people would have considered as indicative of privilege in terms of wealth, luxury or opportunity. Utah's class background and his experiences in the Korean war were much as Chris describes his own being.
* 4:00 minutes into this recording, but the whole thing is worth listening to:
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John… stunningly wonderful and provocative. When I started this journey I withdrew and relied on exemplars for several years. A couple of years in, I found people I could talk and relate to, the Zapfs and Julian Waters and Werner Schneider. That is as far as privilege ever got me… and that was pure "hutzpah" that I even reached out to them. Even now I am careful as to who I reach out to for myriad reasons. But the idea that study and talent and passion have driven me for more than 3 decades is astonishing when I think back on my life.0
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I tend to think of privilege in terms of a matrix in which one can plot various kinds of relative privilege. Although it is unfashionable to say so, I still think that class privilege is the most dominant, dangerous and destructive kind, and I believe much of the fixation with other kinds of privilege (gender, race, sexual orientation, linguistic, etc.) in our society results from the collapse of any effective opposition to the increase in class inequality. However: within the matrix, what is most striking about gender-based privilege is that it is a persistent and largely similar at the intra-class level. So while there are many ways in which a middle-class professional woman is privileged relative to a working class male, within her class she is less privileged than her male colleagues; within his own class, the man is more privileged than a working class woman. This does seem to be the case across the whole matrix: however else you arrange the grid — by class, by race, by politics, by religion — men come out more privileged than women within each division.6
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Michael: I'm glad we're on the same page. I'd argue about the subtler points of the issue, but others are doing that already, so let's just enjoy the moment for now.3
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Fantastic, John! I really hear what he is saying.
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This is not a personal attack. This is commentary about inequality. There is a massive difference.
This reminds me of this piece that I have waited for a good moment to post; not sure this is said good moment yet, but still – for those who may not have read it yet:
https://thsppl.com/i-racist-538512462265
Now yes, this is about racism – which surely is a much more grave issue than sexism; but I believe many of the base mechanisms are transferable, in an appropriately adjusted way (indulge me; use your mental pantographs).
“The result of this is an incessantly repeating argument where a Black person says ‘Racism still exists. It is real,’ and a white person argues ‘You're wrong, I'm not racist at all. I don't even see any racism.’”
Perspective. That’s the thing about privilege; it’s invisible from the perspective of those who have it. And telling someone they have it is not an accusation. It’s pointing out that they’re perhaps living life on a slightly easier setting than other people; which by default is transparent.
And I totally agree – especially in the context of this link posted above – with John’s concept of relative privilege. We (mostly white, reasonably economically stable) women in type are still much more privileged than other members of our society/ies. But as much as that needs to keep us aware of the value, the humanity, the reality of those less privileged than us, it also must not keep us from speaking up about our group, about women being underrepresented, underpaid, undervalued as compared to men.
And again, that doesn’t mean that we think that every one of you men is somehow actively, personally perpetuating this. It’s a structural issue, and we should attack it together.
(And every time I say something like this, I feel like saying – this is probably much less of a problem within our little bubble of type design than in society at large. But that still doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist.)
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The only action I can take as an individual is individual action and encourage others to do the same. I have always done what I thought I could--that is not to say that it was enough. What I do need to know is what do I do now? As I said before, I cannot change the past but would like to know how to change the future. Feeling guilty for what others of my race and gender have done does not do a single thing to help make a solution. Rather than be told I am complicit because of my skin color and gender is not a solution and it actually sounds racist/sexist. What are the things we horrid old white males can do as individuals to begin a solution?
https://www.flickr.com/photos/dezcom/albums/72157635722976076
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6t6nzLX9gF4
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