Diversifying TypeDrawers

Stephen Coles

I’m very pleased to see that over half of new TypeDrawers members over the last two weeks are women. Many are adding insightful posts, as well. This forum will only improve with increased diversity and I am grateful to these new members and those who invited them to participate. I hope the trend continues.

Please let me know how the management (official moderation team to be announced soon) can make TypeDrawers more welcoming and inclusive for women, minorities, and other groups who are typically underrepresented in discussion groups around type design, typography, and lettering. Thanks!

kupfers

1. Not allow bluff manners and vulgar language from long time members anymore. 

Stephen Coles

Can you elaborate? Privately is ok, if you prefer.

James Puckett

So to bring women to Typedrawers we should treat their ears like delicate snowflakes that mighy crumble from the shock of impoliteness or an utterance of fuck? That seems rather sexist.

kupfers

I have to say no more.

Dyana Weissman

I always thought the forums at Television Without Pity had pretty good rules. 

Thomas Phinney

James, you appear to be at least dangerously close to breaking Wheaton's Law here. Might want to rethink your approach.

Stephen Coles

James, I don’t think it’s about swear words. We don’t censor simple cussing. Personal and antagonistic attacks are the kinds of things that could be categorized as unwelcoming. That’s probably covered in Rule 4, but I’d love to hear from the aforementioned groups if there are ways to be inclusive beyond what’s spelled out in those rules.

Stephen Coles

Dyana, yes, that’s pretty thorough. Maybe too thorough, in fact. I feel like rules are more likely to be read (and hence followed) if they are brief and succinct. I tried to cover behavior guidelines as concisely as possible in our Rules, but let me know if there’s something that should be more explicit.

kupfers

Oh, you want me to name names, J_Montalbano?

Stephen Coles

Beyond naming names, it would be helpful if you link or describe the behavior you find objectionable. Flag it and call it out right here.

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kupfers

I don’t even want to engage in this. J_Montalbano flagged me for no reason more than a couple of times and this does not make for a welcoming atmosphere. Neither does James Puckett’s tone, or J_Montalbano liking it. If you want to make Type Drawers more welcoming for new people or less bare-knuckle industry members, this has to change.

kupfers

Also, J_Montalbano, what’s the deal with your new profile picture sporting the slogan “atypi should die”? Does that mean that ATypI members are also not welcome on this forum anymore?

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Stephen Coles

Alright, let’s not get off track. Everyone should be aware that flags from multiple users indicate a serious problem that is noticed by the management. You will receive a warning, and if the behavior continues, your account will be suspended. This is made clear in the rules, but I will be more attentive about warnings, and I hope others will be more attentive about flagging trollish or abusive posts.

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kupfers

Ha, indeed I flagged you but I think not ungrounded, while you in return flag me for flagging or revenge sake. But whatever, as you’re weird bearing-grudges-big-time answer to my question about your profile pic shows, it is totally not worth my time discussing with you. 

[Deleted User]

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John Hudson

[Off topic:

James, have you written to Barbara Jarzyna, the current ATypI executive director about this? If you explain the history, you might get a more positive response from her than you did in 2001. At that time Barbara was organising the Unicode conferences, which is how I first met her. I was due to fly to California on the morning of 11 September for the Unicode conference, as were many other people who were unable to attend as a result of the closing of US airspace. Barbara refunded all of those people, even though it meant that her company made a loss on that conference. She may not be able to help you, since the original decision predates her involvement with ATypI — and ATypI's conference accounting is year-by-year —, but I am sure she would look into it with good faith.]

Dave Crossland

Was about to write the same proposal as JH offlist. If I were James I'd be upset. 

Ray Larabie

I don't really see the problems at Typedrawers but that doesn't mean they don't exist. Privilege is hard to see when viewed from the wrong end. If we do nothing in cases where diversity is discouraged, we're complicit. 

I've seen people stand up for what they thought was offensive and have someone else come along and state something to the effect of "that shouldn't be taken as offensive". I think, if you're tempted to respond to someone's offense, check your sex and skin colour. If the answer is white and male, you should refrain from chiming in on what you think shouldn't be offensive. Back away from the keyboard.

I think it helps to read a critique of the state of the industry or maybe even specifically, this site. In the case of video games, a lot of issues about feminism and racial diversity had been slipping under the white/male radar for decades. It took Anita Sarkeesian to bring the problems to the surface for everyone to see.

joeclark

You’re an inch away from replicating the fatal mistakes of Typophile. Wing Chun and Glark of Television Without Pity are not remotely viable models to emulate. I speak as someone who tangled with the arbitrary rules of both sites. (I have been online for 23 years, and Wing Chun and Glark both lived in Toronto before they remedied the cardinal mistakes of their birth and became Americans.)

Further, I dispute the premise of the discussion. I don’t see why “women, minorities, and other groups who are typically underrepresented in discussion groups around type design” are a priority when anyone can “discuss” type design at will, often under pseudonym. I assume “minorities” means “racial minorities” and not, say, persons with disabilities. I know gay and/or nonwhite and/or female type designers, and have met several graphic designers with significant physical disabilities, but, while the gay/nonwhite/female designers are going strong, I never hear from the disabled ones. Who really needs help? Isn’t that a core discussion that is overlooked here?

Do we even need this kind of metaconversation? If so, why must it be limited to classic liberal concerns like race and sex? But isn’t this a very big kettle of worms that simply does not need to be opened?

Isn’t Coles’ posting really another way of saying, yet again, that women face some kind of barrier in type design? But do they? The typeface doesn’t know you’re a girl. If the suggestion is that typeface-discussion forums are unwelcome to women and minorities, how do you prove that to anyone’s satisfaction? (“I’m angry and I’m offended by this comment and I don’t like this guy’s style in general” does not amount to “proving” anything.)

Typophile closed up shop, which might have been deserved. (But rendering its archives unavailable is a disgrace.) When it comes to “discussion groups around type,” TypeDrawers is it at the moment. And it barely gets any use. Clamp down on misbehaviour that seems not to be happening in the first place and what ultimately will become of TypeDrawers? Isn’t Typophile a cautionary tale?

Generally speaking, sites that call themselves “discussion forums” resist dissent, especially disagreement with foundational principles that are, when examined, weakly formed or contradictory. TypeDrawers is not MetaFilter, which at least has some taste for variance via its MetaTalk forum. (Though longtime participants there – I am user 250 – know there are real limits to what can be questioned.)

I don’t think the comment-flagging system, as presently implemented, is of any use for limiting “abuse,” to the extent it even exists.

Everyone thinks Coles is a great guy except for those who do not. (Mustn’t break consensus.) Now he has the keys to this place and has explicitly threatened to ban people. (Mustn’t break consensus.) Just this comment in its entirety is enough to get someone banned. Isn’t it?

Elizabeth Carey-Smith

Not sure why you're being defensive about women feeling more included, @joeclark but you're welcome to stay out of this thread. To answer your question:

women face some kind of barrier in type design? But do they?

For the millionth time, yes. If you don't want to help fix that, that's your prerogative.

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Stephen Coles

Everyone thinks Coles is a great guy except for those who do not. (Mustn’t break consensus.) Now he has the keys to this place and has explicitly threatened to ban people.

Joe, don’t worry, I am fully aware of how you feel about me, and you have already made it clear to others in previous discussions. Fortunately, it’s not very relevant, because I will not be the sole arbiter of suspension and banning. These and other major decisions will be made by a committee of moderators.

I don’t think the comment-flagging system, as presently implemented, is of any use for limiting “abuse,” to the extent it even exists.

It’s the only system we have and I think it works well enough. I am open to hearing other ideas.

Thomas Phinney

Joe: Yes, Typophile is a cautionary tale—but about insufficient moderation, not too much.

Tiffany Wardle

RE: Moderating. It will always be “you are damned if you do and damned if you do not.”

RE: Diversity. The fact that this thread even exists proves there is a problem. Instead it of arguing about it (blah blah blah) we should simply start using it more. Argumentative voices be damned.

Dave Crossland

It’s the only system we have and I think it works well enough. I am open to hearing other ideas.

Can we see who has the most flags for each kind of flag?

Scott-Martin Kosofsky

I feel as if no one has clearly articulated the grievances we're being asked to redress. Are there individuals involved with type design who believe their participation here is not welcome because of their gender, race, nationality, or ethnicity? Stephen, has anyone said this? 

Ray Larabie

"I don’t see why “women, minorities, and other groups who are typically underrepresented in discussion groups around type design” are a priority when anyone can “discuss” type design at will, often under pseudonym. "

It isn't just just about leaving things as they are and equality will naturally occur. When people have to deal with a lifetime of visible/invisible barriers in a system that's been carefully engineered to open doors for white dudes, letting-it-be is insufficient. And I'd go as far as to say it makes you complicit. I don't usually stick my nose but I feel like 

Think of how women are treated outside of this forum... on the open internet. I can't help but think a lot of women avoid participating in discussions because they're been burned before. Burned by all the times they've said something serious only to be told they have pretty eyes and they'd look better with their hair down. You've seen the rest of the internet, right?  It's not enough to just open the door. If you think addressing equality is a kettle of worms, maybe we need more worms. We don't need to spell out what's a classic liberal concern as you put it. You know very well what privilege is and I think you're smart enough to know that it can't be applied universally. 

I mentioned the open internet being hostile but what happens of a relatively civil forum? I think we've all seen this pattern.

Woman: That's offensive because (reasons)
Man: Why should that be offensive?

I can't recall a situation where I thought the person asking "why should that be offensive" didn't know damn well why. It's always a veiled "you shouldn't be offended". This type of discussion persists on web forums. If you think there's nothing wrong that that type of response...go for a walk and really have a good think about it. Or maybe to put it in another context:

Person: You're offensive because you smell like you just rolled around in garbage.
Other person: Why should that be offensive?

The reasonable answer in that case would be "I'm sorry, I didn't know." or "I know I'm stinky and I don't care" or "What can I do to be less stinky?" or just go away. Nobody would think to ask "why is that offensive?". You just assume it's offensive because they just told you that it's offensive. There's no justification required. Asking how you can be less offensive...that's constructive.