Is this Upsilon acceptable at all? (Latin and Cyrillic below for comparison).
Do you know of a precedent for such (mal)treatment of this letter?
I am aware that the shape of Cyrillic U is most probably derived from a vertical ligature of Upsilon and Omicron, so using this shape for the Upsilon on its own might seem illogical. But that set aside, does it look just plain wrong?
Comments
Although I'm not sure about making it descend.
For reference, here are the forms of Upsilon that are recorded in archaic epichoric Greek inscriptions. The 'standard' forms of Greek letters, are the Ionian alphabet, which everywhere became the norm, replacing local forms, by about 400 BC.
I do think the hook on the bottom is problematic in your design. The two-stroke construction per se is seen in informal. non-cursive writing, but I don't recall ever seeing it with a hook at the bottom.
Huh, sounds like a decent use-case for this typeface... Versus a facsimile of some object from 2418 years ago.
The Greek script, like Greek cuisine, is living culture, thanks to people anywhere in the world who can enjoy and benefit. It is not confined to a museum.
I didn't post the image from my lecture on epichoric Greek to suggest that Adam should attempt a 'facsimile' of any of the archaic shapes, but only to illustrate that the form in the image he had posted was not, in fact, what it purported to be. The simple two-stroke construction without the hook is seen in modern handwriting, and doesn't require spurious 'ancient' precedence.
Adam, if you're interested in non-standard forms that would fit the style of your typeface, perhaps try something like this?
B.t.w., these (⬇︎) are the primary forms of the У, Ж, Ф, and З in Veljović’s Sava (Adobe, 2003).
Clashing with the whole is a valid but completely different issue, one not resolvable via historicism.
> isn't within the constellation of shapes that constitute that letter for readers.
Based on my contemplation and observations, I think it must be. In fact some of those shapes from 400 BC are mere nebulas today.
> the form in the image he had posted was not, in fact, what it purported to be.
Where do you see what it purported to be? Beyond somebody's interpretation of Greek. Which is what we all do anyway, simply with different degrees of moxie.
> The simple two-stroke construction without the hook is seen in modern handwriting, and doesn't require spurious 'ancient' precedence.
Which is irrelevant to what shape could work (versus what shape is known to work). Like how an upside-down "V" does not need the bar to work as an "A" most of the time. (And nothing works all the time.)
--
Sava BTW has long been a personal favorite for its Y/У/Υ.
It makes great sense for Adam to shoot for a multi-script system flavored for use in the Cyrillic sphere; a Cyrillized Y/Υ helps do that. Like this Cyrillized "g" I once made for a Russian client:
But that g still looks like a g, and conforms to expectations of the shape of that letter. i don't think putting a hook the bottom of an Upsilon does, that's all.
Oh. The filename. OK, I can accept its misleading... in proportion to how many people actually notice. Although maybe they simply thought "-inspired-by-the-ancient-style-" was too wordy. But really, the visual precedent is there, for people who only need that for inspiration, historic merit or not.
BTW your reading of that "Ha ha." (not smiley, but anyway) seems convenient; it's like me claiming it means: "Precedents are ridiculous". Which I don't believe they are, but they do have limits, especially in proportion to their age.
(Me trying to read that "???" is even less reliable.)
> in actual Greek use.
Is there some geogenetic test that certifies this? A terroir of type? Really...
Any rendering that makes people think it's the Greek alphabet becomes a precedent for Greek. And if somebody like Oprah promotes it, guess what, Richard Porson can turn in his grave fast enough to power Iceland and it would still become the precedent to die for, honey. Nobody has to like this for designers to take it as the cultural reality we must work with.
> But that g still looks like a g, and conforms to expectations of the shape of that letter. i don't think putting a hook the bottom of an Upsilon does, that's all.
Formal conscious expectation, I can buy. But can they read it? It's hard to doubt that. And does it give it a Cyrillic air? (Assuming that's desired.) Well how else could it do so.
Whether it clashes with the whole remains a valid question; although clashing to the point of causing outright rejection seems unlikely. Ergo: it just doesn't seem overly risky.
Personally, I don't think this form is working well in any of the scripts, including Cyrillic: the join of the two strokes is too low and too dark in all cases. In this design, I might be inclined to try this kind of construction for the Cyrillic:
[That's rough: the join could be lower.]
While the shape is different, a kind of two-stroke upsilon is shown in that chart to have been quite common in ancient times.
- I vote for the second /Upsilon. First one looks (don’t get me wrong ) just wrong.
- Third one looks very old-ish, especially for this context. You can indeed find it in early 20th century specimens, but not so often anymore, or not so calligraphic. You could try a more subtle approach. (Photo below from one of my specimens: Deberny & Cie, Le Livret Typographique, Caracteres Grecs, Paris, ~1910-1914).
Lowercase:
- /tonos being so horizontal, might cause issues for /dieresistonos, since your design is so condensed. Maybe go with a more vertical one like the one you use for UC.
- /zeta & /xi seem to be very-very narrow, I would try to make them more equal to /epsilon. Revisit /finalsigma when you have a solution; these three share similar design language.
- this construction of /gamma, with the open loop, is seen only in handwriting. I suggest you try a different approach; this will look (amateurishly) wrong
- you could use elements from /chi (in-stroke construction) for the ascender of /lambda and maybe on /nu and /gamma.
- UC /Theta and LC /theta are not distinguished enough. Usually a not-connected horizontal bar on /Theta does the trick.
Hope these comments help!