Diversifying TypeDrawers

Shelley Gruendler · August 2015

Years ago, perhaps 10 or more, female typographers attempted a similar thread on Typophile. It suffered the same fate as this one and is the reason why I rarely, if ever, post on forums. Perhaps those that are unclear on the aims for diversity and inclusion in the field could listen to us for a while? There is a lot that we have to say, if only people could be open to hearing it.

Stephen Coles · August 2015

Scott said:

Are there individuals involved with type design who believe their participation here is not welcome because of their gender, race, nationality, or ethnicity? Stephen, has anyone said this?

Not explicitly, no. But, as some have described, there are reasons beyond outright hostility that dissuade some from participating. Up until this week I have been painfully aware that TD had a woeful lack of active women and minority participants, and I wanted to explore ways that we could be more inclusive. Can’t hurt. I think, despite a few digressions, this discussion is useful. At least it’s encouraging women to express their concerns. It’s a start.

Dave Crossland · August 2015

I feel as if no one has clearly articulated the grievances we're being asked to redress. Are there individuals involved with type design who believe their participation here is not welcome because of their gender, race, nationality, or ethnicity?

I put it to you that if no one has clearly articulated the grievances that are being redressed, that is because those aggrieved do not speak.

Pick any reasonably long thread on this forum, say any with 40+ comments, and tally the authors on those 4 attributes, and see if participation is lacking from some group, or if one set of attributes is very common.

Given that the forum is overtly open for anyone with an internet connection and an interest in type to sign up, if you find (as I'm certain you will) that each thread you tally has less diversity than you'll find at any type conference or higher educational course, then I suggest it is entirely reasonable to draw the conclusion that there is something covert going on - something 'behind the scenes' that is not clearly articulated. I think "structural oppression" is a pretty good way of naming this: such grievances are inherently not clearly articulated; if it was overt, then it would be regular oppression, plain and simple

Going back to Stephen's original post: I want to thank Stephen for posting this thread, and to working to set up a moderation team that is diverse - I'm also pleased to see more diversity in the forum, with active new members, and I too hope the trend continues.

Speaking only for myself, as I see myself as part of the most privileged part of global society, I think that if I attempt to be proactive in making type more welcoming and inclusive, that can easily become counterproductive. However, spending time 'splaining what is happening to other well-privileged people who are further along the memetic adoption curve seems appropriate.

Type spans the two cultures and includes both highly artisanal and highly technical people, and my affiliation is much more in the technology side, so I learned a lot about this stuff from the geekfeminism wikia and recommend it as an introduction to the topic even for people here who might not usually visit websites about geek culture:

Joe,

Mustn’t break consensus.

I kindly disagree with you about this possible dynamic; that hasn't been my personal experience here. I think The Rules are very clear that breaking consensus is welcome: "we tolerate strong disagreement and debate," as long as its civil, on topic, with Real Names. I myself sometimes veer a bit off-topic or express myself in a repulsively pompous manner, and take a beating on the negative flags, but I haven't been banned for going on and on about a topic which breaks consensus. Also, I believe Stephen has approved the membership of a few people who James Puckett would not approve.

kupfers · August 2015

Scott, I could name some concrete things if you want. Please, all, correct me but I think I’m one of the very few, maybe only female regular reader and contributor to Type Drawers since 2012?

– I remember Stinkefinger flying around and members leaving after that.

– I remember generalizations about someone’s nationality and members leaving.

– I remember jokes about not very funny cocktail name s.

– I remember new members getting troll-flags for not using their full first and last name despite being fully identifiable and with a filled-out profile, and not coming back.
– I already mentioned the unfounded destructive flagging above.

This all may not be discrimination because of race, nationality, ethnicity or gender but it contributes to a hostile impression visitors can get from this forum.

I’ve seen the aforementioned “what issue we don’t have issues”. I was guilty of it myself, e.g. when Wei Huang asked 2013 where the women are on Type Drawers and stated that he doesn’t feel there are equal opportunities to enter the type design scene. I replied – pretty emphatically, which I would like to apologizes for – something like “anyone who is just serious and persistent enough and who does good work will eventually be recognized” and that I do not see any sexism in the type scene at all. While this may be true for my individual experience (and I am happy that it became sort of true for him too), I have since paid more attention to the tone on Type Drawers and listened to many stories women and others have told me. Just a few weeks ago I was still of the opinion that we just have to open the doors, but now I also want to provide some »Hilfe zur Selbsthilfe«.

I have to tell you that I had already given up on this forum. The past months haven’t been very enjoyable, discussions were mostly shaped by a handful of regulars, the flagging had worn me down. Until Monday. We can flee or stay out of a forum we don’t find interesting and eventually leave the field to the most verbose or most extreme, or we can try to actively change it. Several people I had suggested to to visit Type Drawers got back to me and said, the first post they read was this one here and they are appalled and put off by the tone and reactions. Luckily also many joined and contributed wonderful things since then. I hope others come back.

I have a pretty thick skin after 19 years in the type industry and with the imaginable mixed bag of experiences. I manage. But I don’t want that everyone has to become audacious, relentless and adopt male manners to survive in the (professional) (online) world. It’s not about female snowflake ears, it’s about being respectful and welcoming to anyone.

What we can do:

– I mentioned the tone. The Type Drawers rules pretty much cover this, as well as the subconscious reminder in my profile image.

– If someone asks a newbie question, try to not verbally roll your eyes. I’m sometimes tempted, too, but perhaps reply something like “maybe research this a little more at xxx and then come back with concrete questions?”. Many told me that they don’t dare to post questions here.

– Try to write in relatively simple English. I don’t mean dumbed down but remember that many members are non-native English speakers, and also don’t have the same cultural background and pop-culture knowledge. For instance I might sound like someone who is okay at expressing herself in English but I can tell you that it is super super hard, day in, day out, especially to meet the exact nuance or expression you’d want, and also to understand what others write. This weird last sentence is a prime example : /

– If you appreciate contributions by (new) members, show it, not necessarily by commenting “great point, thanks” but by using the reaction buttons. We all know that it’s silly but also how encouraging a couple of Likes or Agrees can be.

But my greatest wish for Type Drawers is more stories. Can we have a “lore” section, please? I wish Cherie Cone would come over and tell some of her Mike Parker stories, e.g. how she and Mike speeded down a staircase in a car on the way to the airport in Basel (?) after an ATypI conference. Or Cynthia Batty tell more about the early days of digital type like she did on the ATypI mailing list a few years ago. Or David Berlow. Or David Lemon. And Roger Black. I want to hear everything about manual paste-up times from Mark Simonson, heck I would send him a weekly cake if we could get him to write a regular column!

Elizabeth Carey-Smith · August 2015

@Scott-Martin Kosofsky

Re: specific grievances... I think that @Ray Larabie 's two posts about privilege are brilliantly put. You don't see it because of the position you're in, and that's okay. As the writer Roxane Gay says, (paraphrasing) the only thing you need to do from a place of privilege is acknowledge you're in it, and then respect that others are experiencing something you simply don't experience.

A number of articles are forthcoming (I know because I was interviewed for them) which outline many of the issues women in type face. We can certainly post links on TypeDrawers so you can see where we're coming from.

Addendum: A number of us began participating on TypeDrawers this week in an effort to balance the representation here. You don't need to do anything but welcome us. As we've seen in the past 3 days, that hasn't necessarily occurred.

Isabel Urbina Peña · August 2015

Hi @Stephen Coles thanks for opening this thread and (always) questioning yourself, like others have said that's the first big step. I agree, a more diverse conversation can only make things more interesting for everyone.

@Ray Larabie thanks for your words, "Asking how you can be less offensive...that's constructive." I think this is a great conclusion and opener to the topic. Instead of getting defensive, try to see it from the other person's perspective, no one is here to censor others. We just want to have a richer conversation/experience.

Indra also makes some great points, and her suggestions of "What we can do" are really fantastic. I don't have more than 5 years in the typeface design industry and participating in this kind of forums can be really daunting for a novice, I'm sure you remember when this was you back in the day (male or female)...
I think this sums it up in a really good way: "It’s about being respectful and welcoming to anyone." @Indra Kupferschmid

That's how you get more people interested and excited! Maybe it would be a good idea to reach out/promote the site through social media? This is a GREAT resource, I wasn't aware it existed and I'm really happy to be a part of it now! I don't know if a lot of new people have heard about it...so I'll share with others!

Stephen Coles · August 2015

Good point about social media, Isabel. Occasionally I link to TD from @typographica on Twitter, but just last night I set up the @typedrawers account and I'll be pointing to interesting discussions from there.

Scott-Martin Kosofsky · August 2015

Thank you all for the valuable points. Elizabeth, your recall of Roxane Gay's remark is spot on. Simply being aware of the position one occupies, and one's position in regard to others, is enough to encourage better behavior. Or so one can hope.

Stephen, we're grateful for the reminder.

Robin Mientjes · August 2015

Thanks, @Stephen Coles and the moderation crew. The discussion is valuable, and I’m hopeful to see this kind of insight grow in the community at large. I’ve had great talks on similar topics at the Oslo Typostammtisch (back in with people like our own @Frode Bo Helland and @Kostas Bartsokas, and it’s always led to a stronger mutual understanding.

Kent Lew · August 2015

Indra, Elizabeth, Isabel, et al. — I am glad to have new voices (your voices!) here, so thank you for taking the time and making the effort. I hope you will continue to contribute and find it worth your while to do so.

John Lyttle · August 2015

Hi from a newly approved member (who has been reading TypeDrawers posts since it began). There's a well written piece by Elizabeth CareySmith on Medium that is on point here: https://medium.com/@theoriginalecs/ain-t-i-a-type-nerd-too-27dde21f2d0

Dyana Weissman · August 2015

Recently, I sent out a questionnaire to several women in the industry. I asked if they post on social media, and why or why not. Here are the reasons from women who said they did not contribute, some specifically about Type Drawers, in order of number of responses:

1. No Time (7)

2. Hostility/not inclusive (5)

3. Lurking/on but inactive (4)

4. Not interested in long discussions/debates (2)

5. English not preferred language (1)

5. Prefer to speak in person (1)

5. Real names policy (1)

Most of these are beyond anyone's control. Rule 4 addresses hostility. Seeing that members are interested in learning more is a positive sign.

Type design is a global community. Have we ever discussed opening categories in other languages? Or is this going to stick to English-only?

Shelley Gruendler · August 2015

Michael, the inherent argument of feminism is straight and simple equality so that we shouldn't have to '[produce], [try] to prove that [we] are as good, if not better than [our] male colleagues by producing twice as much work that is better'.

And we are certainly not bickering or whining about a 'lack of attention'. Please avoid such sweeping generalisations when addressing concerns regarding a population of which you are not a part.

Nina Stössinger · August 2015

I hope that everyone who still isn’t sure we need to be having this discussion (and also everybody else) will now be reading Dyana’s comprehensive (and, really, encouraging) piece for Typographica:
http://typographica.org/on-typography/womens-voices-in-type-on-and-offstage/

Ray Larabie · August 2015

Equality can be achieved by working twice as hard? Chop chop! Double time, everyone. Well... not everyone.

[edit: the post I was referring is no longer visible]

PabloImpallari · August 2015

Discriminate against a woman (or whatever), just for being a woman (or whatever), is plain silly.

I've hired a few people to help me on my projects on the past years, so far 2 man and 1 women. But I've never weighted the sex, that will be silly. I've only weighted their skills, which was the only thing that matters to me. Hey! They might have been man, woman, crocodiles, elephants, martians or whatever... I just don't care about that. My only concern was "can this person get the job done well, and on-time?", everything else is of no importance.

+1 for diversity

Ray Larabie · August 2015

Reason for flagging is because you were baiting the moderators: not cool.

[edit: the post I was referring is no longer visible]

Thierry Blancpain · August 2015

I’m white, male, and have a Swiss passport. So for now I’ll limit myself to this: I’m happy to see many new (female) voices, especially many that I highly respect in our industry, take part in this discussion. Please stay, and please know that there are many people here who would like to hear your opinions and see your work.

Ben Blom · August 2015

From TypeDrawers Rule Number 2:

Post topics appropriate for TypeDrawers, and post them in the appropriate category. Get to know the categories listed on the left. If the topic you wish to discuss doesn’t fit in any of those categories, it’s probably not right for TypeDrawers.

I think it is irrelevant, whether someone who contributes here is a woman, a man, or belongs to any minority.

I am in favor of diversity of ideas, opinions, techniques, thoughts, etc., which is relevant for TypeDrawers.

I am in favor of diversity in many, many other ways—but I don't speak about that here, because it is not relevant here.

I think the current discussion doesn’t fit in any of the categories listed on the left.

PS. The rules for decent behavior here, are the same for women, men, and members of any minority.

Stephen Coles · August 2015

Ben, I posted this topic in the TypeDrawers Announcements category. This discussion is relevant to the health and future of TypeDrawers.

Atilla Korap · August 2015

Any gathering, group of people, society, etc. needs to figure out the way that it's members want to deal with each other. There is no need to justify that kind of discussion. It is a natural self corrective mechanism of an open community.
If it doesn't exist then it is probably not an open community.

I understand that for some it is too distracting to constantly discuss on this sorta meta level. And it looks to some as if the discussion is leading nowhere. But it is ok, if someone thinks like that. There is no need to panic. When everybody is equally important, things take a bit longer, but usually the level of content is higher at the end.

Stephen Coles · August 2015

A brief note of sincere apology: A post by Michael Clark was flagged by several users as Abuse or Troll. After 5 flags the system collapses the post and makes its text gray. Ray’s "Edit" comments made me believe that only Moderators could see the collapsed post and that it was invisible for all other users. Assuming this, I made the dumb mistake of deleting it completely when it showed up in my moderation queue. This is completely my own fault and I regret it. In the future we will rely on flagging to collapse posts. All collapsed posts will remain intact so the thread is still understandable for those who want to follow it. Exceptions to this policy will be rare, such as robotic spam.

kupfers · August 2015

Thanks for explaining. Moving forward, I think we users should be certain that no comment gets deleted without consensus by all moderators. We should also be able to have critical voices here and controversial discussions without fearing repercussions.

Jackson Showalter-Cavanaugh · August 2015

Since there is apparently no way to resurrect Mr. Clark's troll comment, I'll post the tiny snippet I had saved in a draft.

Gudrun Zapf von Hesse who did a superb job of defining female talent without using a megaphone.

This line really hits a nerve for me. All of the negative "why are we talking about this?" replies have bothered me but I've been having a hard time clearly explaining why. This line, however, totally puts a pin on it. In context (sorry it's missing but actually it's not relevant) this thought might have sounded like part of a rational, critical argument. But when you actually read that line and think about it, it's pretty clear he is just nicely telling women they should keep their mouths shut.

Over the last five days the discussions on this board have become significantly more interesting and valuable. I'm attributing that entirely to the wave new participants who have come here specifically because we are addressing this topic. Just about all of them have added a much needed shot of new energy, ideas, and perspectives to a place that was, frankly, predicable and stale. We're obviously having some growing pains. I sincerely hope the new people stick around.

George Thomas · August 2015

"...it's pretty clear he is just nicely telling women they should keep their mouths shut."

Jackson, I disagree with your interpretation. Everyone interprets things differently and while Michael's comments could be considered strong by some I don't think he intended to insult anyone, even obliquely. Even if he did, it's just his opinion, nothing more.

FWIW, I have known some male type designers who would have been better received had they lost their megaphone too. :-)

Atilla Korap · August 2015

George, I think there was no misinterpretation. I read Michael's post, too. And the logic of the whole text was summed up very well by Jackson. Jackson might have used stronger words, but the subtext is clear: Women, should stay in the second line.
Why's that? I don't know anything about the relationship between the two Zapfs, and I certainly don't want to be disrespectful of Frau Zapf von Hesse. The few times that I met both of them, I found her a bit cooler than him. But the public image is that she was married to the genius, plus she drew some typefaces, too. When Michael, as a man, says "be like her" to a woman in this thread, of course it does references that image. And it is perfidious, because he probably does have an high opinion of Frau Zapf von Hesse.

It would be something completely different, if a female type designer said: I want to be like Gudrun Zapf von Hesse. And for this discussion it doesn't matter what it could mean, but there would be more possibilities for interpretation. As a man, things are a bit narrower. There is a long tradition of men suppressing women. Who you are and what you are matters to what you are saying.
Does this not make sense to you?

To put it in one simple sentence: Obviously nobody wants to be misogynist or patronizing and then a lot of people keep telling women what to do.

Shelley Gruendler · August 2015

Well Jackson, I think you'll find that we have no plans of leaving anytime soon! Thanks for the words of support.

The events of the past four months have shown that it's time for us to speak out - as ignoring those that could use a bit of education (and empathy) was good for our sanity, but not for the greater good of our industry.

Lila Symons · August 2015

it's pretty clear he is just nicely telling women they should keep their mouths shut.

Not everyone has opportunities handed to them. Most people have to go after what they want.

Chris Lozos · August 2015

What I find happening on both sides of the XY Chromosome aisle is that we too often say either men do this or women do that. I would very much hope we can change this to "some [men/women] I have encountered do thus and such. We can point to men like Ray Rice and say he punched a women in the face because there is visible evidence. It is very unfair, hurtful, and untrue to generalize this horrid behavior to all men. I resent it and am offended by it just as women are offended by being equated with the bad behavior of a few. There is a percentage of assholes in every race,creed ad gender. We need to single them out and not punish all the rest for the behavior of a few. Likewise, we need not jump to conclusions about any gender or group without evidence. Guilty until proven innocent is a horrible thing. If we suspect a problem, we should find evidence before we make an accusation.

Andrew Wood · August 2015

I've just joined and I'm a middle-aged white male. Sorry for bring down the diversity average. :-(

Diversifying TypeDrawers

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