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Apostrophe word list

Wei HuangWei Huang Posts: 97
edited October 2016 in Technique and Theory
Hi all, anyone have a list of common words and cases (in Latin script languages) with the apostrophe?
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    Wei HuangWei Huang Posts: 97
    So far what I have:

    aren’t can’t couldn’t didn’t doesn’t don’t hadn’t hasn’t haven’t he’d he’ll he’s I’d I’ll I’m I’ve isn’t it’s let’s mustn’t shan’t she’d she’ll she’s shouldn’t that’s there’s they’d they’ll they’re they’ve we’d we’re we’ve weren’t what’ll what’re what’s what’ve where’s who’d who’ll who’re who’s who’ve won’t wouldn’t you’d you’ll you’re you’ve

    L’Arre L’arre L’erre L’œve 

    and contextual combo list.
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    Nick ShinnNick Shinn Posts: 2,146
    Don’t forget numbers, e.g. Summer of ’69— a big fail for “smart” layout applications. 
    Rock ’n’ Roll!
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    Gary LongGary Long Posts: 1
    At least in English, the apostrophe is used for the possessive, thus: any letter/apostrophe/s. Also s/apostrophe/space (or other punctuation mark) for plural possessives.
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    Hrant Հրանդ Փափազեան PapazianHrant Հրանդ Փափազեան Papazian Posts: 2,044
    Is this for kerning?
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    Igor FreibergerIgor Freiberger Posts: 253
    Portuguese: d’água minh’alma 
    English: ’cause ’cos ’em ’gainst ’fraid ’mongst ’nother ’tude ’zine ’twill
    Deutsch: ’naus ’nauf ’nunter ’nüber ’nen
    Dutch: ’s-Hertogenbosch ’s-Gravenhage
    Italian: ’nduja ’ndrangheta
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    Craig EliasonCraig Eliason Posts: 1,400
    'Tis 'tis 
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    James Hultquist-ToddJames Hultquist-Todd Posts: 380
    Am I the only one who just does: /quoteright a/quoteright b/quoteright c/quoteright d/quoteright e/quoteright f/quoteright g/quoteright h/quoteright i/quoteright j/quoteright k/quoteright l/quoteright m/quoteright n/quoteright o/quoteright p/quoteright q/quoteright r/quoteright s/quoteright t/quoteright u/quoteright v/quoteright w/quoteright x/quoteright y/quoteright z/quoteright

    and so on?

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    Michael JarboeMichael Jarboe Posts: 265
    @James Todd I pretty much do the same for quotes and guillemets etc. with consideration for placement amongst different languages.
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    Craig EliasonCraig Eliason Posts: 1,400
    o'clock.
    But yes, this is probably a case where making it work for all letters and numbers is easier than trying to assemble an exhaustive list of potential strings.
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    Michael JarboeMichael Jarboe Posts: 265
    To add to what Kent said, even fake words that look like real words can be better to evaluate than abstract strings.
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    María RamosMaría Ramos Posts: 100
    James Todd said:
    Am I the only one who just does: /quoteright a/quoteright b/quoteright c/quoteright d/quoteright e/quoteright f/quoteright g/quoteright h/quoteright i/quoteright j/quoteright k/quoteright l/quoteright m/quoteright n/quoteright o/quoteright p/quoteright q/quoteright r/quoteright s/quoteright t/quoteright u/quoteright v/quoteright w/quoteright x/quoteright y/quoteright z/quoteright

    and so on?

    I do that, but it is always useful to see the character combinations in context. That way it is easier to see where you need to do kerning. Triplets are in some cases a thing to consider with quoteright
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    María RamosMaría Ramos Posts: 100
    Thanks for brining up this topic @Wei Huang. The quoteright is a troublesome character for kerning
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    attarattar Posts: 209
    edited October 2016
    In French it can be every letter on the right side, caps accented or otherwise.

    You might be able to do some cherry-picking on the left handside, but not worth it imo.

    Specially considering that apostrophe was used much more in the middle of words until ~XVIII century. Even today you might use such phrasing to sound quaint. I'd just kern every letter combination.

    Anyway, here's a reference:

    https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apostrophe_(typographie)#En_fran.C3.A7ais

    The article also states: "it's in French that the apostrophe occurs most frequently."
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    Hrant Հրանդ Փափազեան PapazianHrant Հրանդ Փափազեան Papazian Posts: 2,044
    María Ramos said:
    Triplets are in some cases a thing to consider
    How robustly are kerning triplets supported now?
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    María RamosMaría Ramos Posts: 100
    edited October 2016

    @Hrant H. Papazian What do you mean? Supported by different software?

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    Hrant Հրանդ Փափազեան PapazianHrant Հրանդ Փափազեան Papazian Posts: 2,044
    Yes, the last time I checked support seemed too unreliable.
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    Wei HuangWei Huang Posts: 97
    edited December 2016
    James Todd said:
    Am I the only one who just does: /quoteright a/quoteright b/quoteright c/quoteright d/quoteright e/quoteright f/quoteright g/quoteright h/quoteright i/quoteright j/quoteright k/quoteright l/quoteright m/quoteright n/quoteright o/quoteright p/quoteright q/quoteright r/quoteright s/quoteright t/quoteright u/quoteright v/quoteright w/quoteright x/quoteright y/quoteright z/quoteright

    and so on?

    In my research I've also come across these possible combinations for quotes (rather than apostrophe use):

     /quoteleft/letter/quoteright /quoteleft/letter/quoteleft /quoteright/letter/quoteright /quotesinglbase/letter/quoteright /quotesinglbase/letter/quoteleft /quotesingle/letter/quotesingle 

    i.e:


    If I'm being thorough I also take care to try proof every letter to between every other letter with an apostrophe between.
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    Hrant Հրանդ Փափազեան PapazianHrant Հրանդ Փափազեան Papazian Posts: 2,044
    Hopefully one day 6/∂ quotes will catch on, since avoiding confusion with the apostrophe is a Good Thing. Of course then we'd have to kern against ∂ as well...
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    Thomas PhinneyThomas Phinney Posts: 2,748
    How would that be operationalized, Hrant? Repurpose the former /apostrophe “dumb typewriter vertical apostrophe” slot to look like the old single left curly quote?
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    Hrant Հրանդ Փափազեան PapazianHrant Հրանդ Փափազեան Papazian Posts: 2,044
    edited December 2016
    No, I would leave the apostrophe alone, and have close quotes be h-mirrors of conventional open quotes (something I've done in my old Cristaal font). Some designs (most notably by Carter, and Licko) v-flip the open quotes instead, but besides not helping with the apostrophe confusion it's more jarring; in my scheme a quoted passage starts out normally, and the reader is expecting it to somehow close eventually, making an unconventional closing less jarring.



    Or is that not your question?
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    Thomas PhinneyThomas Phinney Posts: 2,748
    There are single and double quotes. The closing single quote does double duty as an apostrophe.

    What's your solution for that if not to make use of an alternative apostrophe character as well?
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    Hrant Հրանդ Փափազեան PapazianHrant Հրանդ Փափազեան Papazian Posts: 2,044
    edited December 2016
    Leave the apostrophe as-is, and make all the closing quotes point up instead (like the top example in that tweet). Unicode has a separate apostrophe code point, which should naturally be used for an apostrophe, instead of using the single close quote.
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    Thomas PhinneyThomas Phinney Posts: 2,748
    OK, but traditionally the apostrophe code point is used for a “dumb” typewriter-style glyph. So part of your proposal needs to be to turn that into a proper typographic, directional apostrophe, as I mentioned originally. (Unless you prefer the "dumb" style.)
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    Hrant Հրանդ Փափազեան PapazianHrant Հրանդ Փափազեան Papazian Posts: 2,044
    edited December 2016
    True.

    > Unless you prefer the "dumb" style.

    Not often but sometimes I do.



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    Hrant Հրանդ Փափազեան PapazianHrant Հրանդ Փափազեան Papazian Posts: 2,044
    edited December 2016
    BTW U+0027 is called "Apostrophe" and is used as both a (dumb) apostrophe and a dumb single quote, but there's also U+02BC which is much better: https://tedclancy.wordpress.com/2015/06/03/which-unicode-character-should-represent-the-english-apostrophe-and-why-the-unicode-committee-is-very-wrong/

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    Christian ThalmannChristian Thalmann Posts: 1,941
    Hrant, I agree with your self-quote insofar as that guillemets are the best choice. The nice thing is that they are already supported everywhere. I think it doesn't make too much sense to worry about designing new high and/or low quotes when a superior solution is already available.

    Not everybody is going to like the change, of course, but the same will be true about any redesigned high/low quotes (including your droopy-eyed design). Perhaps you could call them «metric quotes» and bundle them up with the much-overdue switch to SI units. :grimace:
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    Hrant Հրանդ Փափազեան PapazianHrant Հրանդ Փափազեան Papazian Posts: 2,044
    edited December 2016
    Many people claim using guillemets in English is grammatically wrong. Only type designers claim upward closing quotes are wrong.  :-)

    What should tickle the fancy of type designers however is that guillemets are much easier to kern... So maybe the obscure compromise of –what I call– quotemets* would be ideal.  :->

    * http://www.typophile.com/node/20061#comment-124405
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