Type design critiques should cost some money

Craig Eliason

@Hrant H. Papazian 
1. Hrant says he doesn't understand why women left or avoid the platform.
2. Craig provides links to threads in which many explain why they felt uncomfortable.
3. Hrant thanks Craig for the links, but then states women were manipulated into leaving.
4. Connor points out that they weren't manipulated into leaving, they felt uncomfortable.
5. Hrant replies that he knows better why they left, and draws a Nazi analogy, and implies that women not here mistakenly think a type forum should serve as their psychotherapy. Then makes obscure references to the way he was treated on a different platform.

In first asking, then asserting the reason why people would avoid Typedrawers, you're actually exemplifying the reason why people would avoid Typedrawers. 

Hrant Հրանդ Փափազեան Papazian

Andreas Stötzner said:

typography seems to be in a phase of stagnation in general for some years now.

You're so right.

I think there's been too much practice and not enough theory lately. Maybe because type design is becoming more competitive, and people can't make the time for things that don't make money.

K Pease said:

Regularly, new users will show up here hoping to learn something, only for their very first interaction to be scolded that their weird foreign name doesn't sound "real"

Agreed, we need to be more gentle.

Ramiro Espinoza said:
Probably it's more like "I don't have enough time to elaborate and write down the things I'd comment about it".

I think this is sort of related to what Andreas pointed out. If being a "professional" means you help other people less, which means you're less interested in expanding horizons, it's a serious problem.

Nick Shinn

I think that what maintains the presence of the dominant demographic here is discussions like this, by said demographic. Of course, most discussions aren’t political, but this does set the tone. Leave it to the moderators, behind the scenes, to deal with the issue obliquely, via site design.

Hrant Հրանդ Փափազեան Papazian

Craig Eliason said:

women were manipulated into leaving

Well not all of them. And there's a balance to be struck between pampering people and encouraging them to be more tolerant, both of ideas and how they're delivered. BTW I'm not necessarily talking about women in either case; I'm thinking of JM for example. Men can manipulate and be manipulated too... And they can also use therapy!

If we ignore certain patterns of behavior (one that manifested when TD was created; another that manifested last year, causing many women to leave a certain other organization) then we can't help to improve things.

I've had many private conversations with a number of women over the past year that reveal the sad extent of peer pressure at work (sometimes bordering on bullying) and masking a depressing level of private infighting. I would love to see all of that resolved, so TD at least can become a better place. But I'm not sure how to do that, and sadly have to admit it's less likely to work coming from me... So if you have ideas, please try.

Hrant Հրանդ Փափազեան Papazian

A community is far more than its individuals, and demonizing (or idolizing) individuals –who are merely products of the environment– distracts from the true problems, hence solutions. For example, JM leaving will not fix anything significant. Just like when I left Typo-L many years ago because some people were blaming me for its decline... but it quickly declined into irrelevance anyway.

So: nobody should make this about me, or JM, or her, or any other individual (even if that makes one feel more relevant as an individual themselves). Address as much of the whole as possible, as deeply as you can.

Chris Lozos

"If you build it, they will come"

Hrant Հրանդ Փափազեան Papazian

Chris Lozos said:

"If you build it, they will come"

OK but the building is not just the content.  :-)

Andreas Stötzner

Hrant H. Papazian said:

… If being a "professional" means you help other people less, which means you're less interested in expanding horizons…

that’s a prejudice and assumption, a very thin one.

(said by someone who teached for many years and helped quite a bunch of dozens of young people on their way)

Hrant Հրանդ Փափազեան Papazian

@Andreas Stötzner Well as a professional teacher (like me BTW) that's your job.  :-)  I meant professional type designer.

John Savard

Craig Eliason said:

In first asking, then asserting the reason why people would avoid Typedrawers, you're actually exemplifying the reason why people would avoid Typedrawers. 

I certainly agree with the principle that, if women said they felt uncomfortable, they did feel uncomfortable.

However, instead of Hrant's intent being to... twist... what they said, it seemed to me like his intent was to emphasize that they left because some people on the forum did bad things (that made them feel uncomfortable) instead of them leaving because they just "felt" uncomfortable for no particular good reason.

Hrant Հրանդ Փափազեան Papazian

John Savard said:
because they just "felt" uncomfortable for no particular good reason.

Well there's always a reason, and everybody has their own. Sometimes it's the discomfort of staying, sometimes it's the discomfort of not leaving. I just hope nobody would rather this place be called TypeComforts.

Stephen Coles

It's probably time to close this thread. Very few posts are on topic, and the original poster is no longer on the forum.

Hrant Հրանդ Փափազեան Papazian

Well since the original post has been erased maybe this thread is now anything-goes...  :->

Ray Larabie

@Hrant H. Papazian

I think there's been too much practice and not enough theory lately.

I've listened to over a decade of your theory so let's see what you've got. With the amount of time you spend on Typedrawers talking about lack of innovation and progress in type, you must have had time to slap an alphabet or two together to show us how we're all doing it wrong.

Chris Lozos

I don't think we are here to either demonstrate our wisdom or to validate our stature. We are just here to talk about type design with whomsoever has the interest.  The problems we can get into are born from a tendency to blame others for their perceived failings rather than demonstrate a productive dialogue that might be helpful. A little humility can go a long way. We have demonstrated by the threads Craig has reminded us of that we are not always as "wise" as we may feel we are.  I know I had my eyes opened more than most by rereading my old posts and the lack of understanding that they demonstrated.
There are plenty of "Everything goes" sites to go to, if you wish. Can we just keep it about type design and let this thread find its place in some retirement village?

Hrant Հրանդ Փափազեան Papazian

@Ray Larabie We'll someday have Paris. (Fingers crossed.)

Chris Lozos

About learning type design: We learn a lot more about blindness by stumbling around in the dark than we do by blaming others for our lack of vision.