Type design critiques should cost some money

13

Comments

  • Claudio Piccinini
    Claudio Piccinini Posts: 681
    Ray Larabie said:
    Now I feel like awful; I shouldn't have said anything. If you're reading this, James, c'mon back.
    Agreed, but he should not be so sensitive, especially to such general criticism. And I would expect he had grown accustomed to know your character (and thus giving the proper weight to your words, which were not surely contemptuous towards him).

    I am always sorry when someone gets so easily offended, to the point he/she cuts off. It’s not good.
  • Claudio Piccinini
    Claudio Piccinini Posts: 681
    Mark Simonson said:
    Sorry to see James’ departure.
    Yeah, it's too bad. Along with me and James Puckett, James was one of the founders of TypeDrawers. The three of us started it out of exasperation over the sorry state of Typophile.com. Sorry to see James go, but I will always be grateful to him for being part of getting this thing going.
    Well, thanks — immensely — to all of you for that, then!
  • Chris Lozos
    Chris Lozos Posts: 1,458
    (And what's the reason there are virtually zero women?)
    Why would we all assume that whatever we have to say here is so compelling that women, or any other group, might find any interest in it?
    Perhaps we have an inflated vision of the value of joining in ;-)
  • Hrant Հրանդ Փափազեան Papazian
    Hrant Հրանդ Փափազեան Papazian Posts: 2,044
    edited June 2021
    @Chris Lozos I think James should just come back.  :-)  Not least since he has authored a thread that's becoming nicely eclectic.

    Well presumably TypeDrawers is interesting to type designers, and it's about being at least representative (today a very large proportion of type designers are women) and hopefully even being willfully diverse. I've actually gotten much flak for saying that the male gender naturally gravitates more towards public discourse/confrontation, but what we've ended up with is just too extremely gendered. Something clearly went wrong at some point (and it must have been during the years I wasn't here because I would have noticed). Somebody should spill the beans so we can address this.
  • Craig Eliason
    Craig Eliason Posts: 1,440
    Hrant H. Papazian said:
    what we've ended up with is just too extremely gendered. Something clearly went wrong at some point (and it must have been during the years I wasn't here because I would have noticed). Somebody should spill the beans so we can address this.
    Well it's been almost six years since these threads, but I suspect that the sentiments there "spilled" haven't all expired. 
  • Simon Cozens
    Simon Cozens Posts: 752
    Hrant H. Papazian said:
    @Chris Lozos I think James should just come back.  :-)  
    I second the sentiment, but when someone has the self-awareness to realise that they need a break, it's good to honour that.
  • Chris Lozos
    Chris Lozos Posts: 1,458
    Craig, I have just reread "These threads" and thanks for the link!  Funny how a few years of time passing can shed light ;-)
  • Ramiro Espinoza
    Ramiro Espinoza Posts: 839
    edited June 2021
    I think James can be grumpy on occasions :) but is a very experienced and talented designer whose contribution have enriched this forum for years. I hope he will come back in a near future.

  • Yves Michel
    Yves Michel Posts: 183
    Ramiro Espinoza said:
    I think James can be grumpy on occasions

    Grumpy is one thing, ******** yourself is another!
  • Andreas Stötzner
    Andreas Stötzner Posts: 798
    As this discussion departed from the initial posters theme long since, I chime in after a few days of hesitation.
    Maybe many of us are just a little worn out after months of home arrest and lack of social life. We have seen a few eruptions of frustration here over the last weeks, myself included. But the actual crisis I smell for quite some time, is that typography seems to be in a phase of stagnation in general for some years now. What interesting things are actually going on? Perhaps renegade James is right when he states: not much. I miss real interesting topics and discussions as well. The last captivating debate I recall was the lengthy conversation about the question of “Latinization of Greek”, started by T. Marza – that was many years ago and still on Typophile. But since then – ? Typography.guru seems to be a little more lively these days, but only at first sight. I’m not complaining, just observing. Where are the actual controversial debates about type and its role in society? Maybe there is something going on outside the Atlantic world (which is reflected in this forum mainly), but we just don’t notice.
    Coincidental or not, I find it peculiar that in such a season of general apathy the question of a major computer firm’s failure with its system UI design I raised recently, evoked only very little response among the members of this community. Maybe “its just me”. But during the last five decades the field of sans faces has seen such an unprecedented raid of good and excellent design solutions – and now Apple has bombed us back into the stone age before all that. So, what was all the progress for?! For nothing. Typography doesn’t seem to matter, even not for those who theatrically pretend to be spearheads of innovation and progressive design. They just give type a f[[BEEP]] and off we go. No one cares, no discussion, End of story. I can’t say the simultaneity of symptoms is accidental.

    So, time to be leaving?
    By the way, I have found a very interesting new occupation about 4 years ago: family history. It is really exciting. It makes you to dig here and there and then you go and find things, sometimes much more than you have expected or dreamed of. You get on a journey like Phileas Fogg and you investigate like Sherlock Holmes … discovery after discovery, it is really rewarding. I can recommend it wholeheartedly!

    – Sorry for the tedious lenght of it.
    Let’s have beer. Time to relax.

  • Matthijs Herzberg
    Matthijs Herzberg Posts: 154
    I, too, feel a little bad after learning more about James' role in these threads, but less so after reading his own motivations for leaving.
    I see a lot of the old guard in here lamenting what was and what could've been, so I too would like to add that in the year or so that I've been coming here, I've gained an absolute ton of knowledge and wisdom and insights from you folks and I'm extremely grateful for that.
    Claudio Piccinini said:
    Who put "disagree" to my post? :D 
    Badly drawn curves (non intentional, that is) are a fact, not something subject to "disagreements" (let alone anonymous ones). LOL
    A parting gift from James: disagrees for everybody in this thread (and a few others).
  • Russell McGorman
    Russell McGorman Posts: 262
    Paul Miller said:
    What about those people who are producing free fonts, are they still expected to pay for a design critique ?
    Charging a nickel, or even a penny will massively "raise the bar". It isn't the amount, but act of paying that makes the difference. It's a just bit of a speed bump that'll make people ask themselves how badly they need their work critiqued before they start typing. I didn't see the O.P. so I don't know what's behind it. 
  • Paul Miller
    Paul Miller Posts: 273
    Russell McGorman said:
    Paul Miller said:
    What about those people who are producing free fonts, are they still expected to pay for a design critique ?
    Charging a nickel, or even a penny will massively "raise the bar". It isn't the amount, but act of paying that makes the difference. It's a just bit of a speed bump that'll make people ask themselves how badly they need their work critiqued before they start typing. I didn't see the O.P. so I don't know what's behind it. 
    Charging anything also massively raises the bar on the expectation of the quality of the advice offered.  If I am paying for advice and what I get is is just a few random comments which aren't really useful then I would feel it wasn't really worth it.  Also what if I don't agree with the advice if the advice seeks to change the character of the font in ways which i do not agree with.
    Also it seems to me that this forum has many elitists who regard themselves as 'professional' and who resent the presence of amateurs i.e. those who produce their wares for free.
    The last font I posted in Type Design Critiques got one comment, just one (so far). Does this mean it was near perfect, no I don't think so for one moment.
    What it does mean is that most of the 'professional' members of this forum don't want me here and aren't willing to offer any help.
    I don't think many of them want more diversity on the forum, they just want to keep it as their own private club.
  • Ramiro Espinoza
    Ramiro Espinoza Posts: 839
    edited June 2021
    Paul Miller said:
    What it does mean is that most of the 'professional' members of this forum don't want me here and aren't willing to offer any help.
    I don't think so. Probably it's more like "I don't have enough time to elaborate and write down the things I'd comment about it".

  • Mark Simonson
    Mark Simonson Posts: 1,739
    I don't feel as strongly about the real names policy as I did when we started this. The point of it was to avoid the kind of thing that would come up sometimes on Typophile where people would make slanderous or abusive remarks anonymously. The idea is that you're less likely to do that if you are using your real name. (Obviously, judging from this thread, it's no guarantee.)

    Anyway, it does bother me when I see newcomers immediately jumped on about the policy. The unintended consequences may be worse than the problem it was meant to fix.
  • Paul Miller
    Paul Miller Posts: 273
    edited June 2021
    Ramiro Espinoza said:
    Paul Miller said:
    What it does mean is that most of the 'professional' members of this forum don't want me here and aren't willing to offer any help.
    I don't think so. Probably it's more like "I don't have enough time to elaborate and write down the things I'd comment about it".

    Mr Espinoza you have got it exactly correct, many of the professional members see the amateur members as a waste of time and not worth helping!
  • Ramiro Espinoza
    Ramiro Espinoza Posts: 839
    edited June 2021
    Paul Miller said:
    Ramiro Espinoza said:
    Paul Miller said:
    What it does mean is that most of the 'professional' members of this forum don't want me here and aren't willing to offer any help.
    I don't think so. Probably it's more like "I don't have enough time to elaborate and write down the things I'd comment about it".

    Mr Espinoza you have got it exactly correct, the professional members see the amateur members as a waste of time and not worth helping!
    I'd say, not necessarily.  Not having the time for a lengthy exchange and wanting you out or consider your designs a 'waste of time' are completely different things.

  • Hrant Հրանդ Փափազեան Papazian
    Hrant Հրանդ Փափազեան Papazian Posts: 2,044
    edited June 2021
    @Craig Eliason Thank you.

    @Nick Shinn Indeed, the subversion of a community to individual ego. Just like in those old threads. And exactly what I confronted back then on Typophile, the final straw that broke the camel's back and triggered the creation of TypeDrawers... which has now suffered the same fate.

    But let's not run away again and create another forum. And let's get the women who ran away (or rather, were manipulated into leaving...) to come back.
  • Nick Shinn
    Nick Shinn Posts: 2,216
    edited June 2021
    Well, I may have been hasty in assuming it was James who deleted everything—perhaps it’s a “feature” of the site template, or a moderator decision.
  • Craig Eliason
    Craig Eliason Posts: 1,440
    edited June 2021
    Nick Shinn said:
    Well, I may have been hasty in assuming it was James who deleted everything—perhaps it’s a “feature” of the site template, or a moderator decision.
    IIRC Berlow deleted or was banned, and his posts (without his name attached) helpfully remain. But maybe the site functions have changed since then.
  • John Savard
    John Savard Posts: 1,135
    edited June 2021
    When I saw this topic, I was going to comment that while it might be reasonable that critiques from professional type designers have value, my comments... are not worth a payment, I would think. And this complicates matters. But I see that something funny went on with this thread, and I extend condolences.

    But addressing the topic:
    I think trying to charge for type design critiques is not a wothwhile idea, for any number of reasons. But I could be wrong. And, if so, here is how to make it workable:
    1) Those forum participants who are professional type designers, and who are known to provide useful comments in type design critiques... shall be flagged. Their forum icon will get a fancy frame or something.
    2) You may choose to pay the fee or not when posting a type design critique thread.
    If you do not, the flagged users will be unable to comment on your thread.
    If you do, the flagged users will be able to comment on your thread. But if none of them do so within 30 days, your fee will be refunded.

    Oh: and here is what I would believe to be the one good reason for instituting such a system.
    A number of the participants here are experienced type designers, who have contributed significant time and effort to critiques of new designers' first efforts.
    If they were starting to weary of this in the absence of financial compensation, and we didn't wnat to lose their contributions, that would be a good reason for bringing it in. Absent that situation, doing something like this makes the site more complicated for no good reason.
  • Christian Thalmann
    Christian Thalmann Posts: 1,988
    Paul Miller said:
    Mr Espinoza you have got it exactly correct, many of the professional members see the amateur members as a waste of time and not worth helping!
    To be fair, there's a limit on the time professional members can be reasonably expected to spend on amateurs. If they wanted to coach every newcomer through their learning curve up to professional level, they wouldn't have time for anything else.
  • Dave Crossland
    Dave Crossland Posts: 1,431
    Craig Eliason said:
    Nick Shinn said:
    Well, I may have been hasty in assuming it was James who deleted everything—perhaps it’s a “feature” of the site template, or a moderator decision.
    IIRC Berlow deleted or was banned, and his posts (without his name attached) helpfully remain. But maybe the site functions have changed since then.
    I believe in both cases, DB and JM requested their entire account be deleted. 

    Fortunately DB's nuggets of gold remain, dissociated from his name, and sadly all JM's appear erased. 
  • Hrant Հրանդ Փափազեան Papazian
    Hrant Հրանդ Փափազեան Papazian Posts: 2,044
    edited June 2021
    Connor Davenport said:
    they left because they dont feel comfortable.
    Sadly, too many women have told me otherwise. And don't forget the Goebbels List!  :-/

    Also: there is no progress without friction. (And a forum is not your therapist.)
  • Connor Davenport
    Connor Davenport Posts: 36
    @Hrant H. Papazian did you seriously just bring up nazis...
  • Hrant Հրանդ Փափազեան Papazian
    Hrant Հրանդ Փափազեան Papazian Posts: 2,044
    edited June 2021
    @Connor Davenport To me fascists (not nazis specifically, and certainly not Nazis) are essentially about controlling communication. And I think publicly threatening to make a list of people ("I'm watching you...") who occasionally agree with somebody you dislike (and the gods forbid, Follow them!) qualifies as fundamentally illiberal. But nevermind me, ask the right women. And most of all, try to convince them to come back.
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