What do you call this part of an /r?

Craig Eliason
Craig Eliason Posts: 1,436
in Technique and Theory

I've seen "arm" but in other letters that refers to more perpendicular parts (e.g. /E, /F).
I've seen "shoulder" but in other letters that refers to a hump that continues down to the baseline (e.g. /n, /h)
I've seen "ear" which otherwise I think only is used with a binocular /g, but Van Gogh was still recognizable after he cut off his ear. 
What do you call it?
«1

Comments

  • Ramiro Espinoza
    Ramiro Espinoza Posts: 839
    edited May 2019
    In private I call it quiff :)
  • Mark Simonson
    Mark Simonson Posts: 1,728
    Sprout?
  • Christian Thalmann
    Christian Thalmann Posts: 1,977
    Flag?
  • Hrant Հրանդ Փափազեան Papazian
    Hrant Հրանդ Փափազեան Papazian Posts: 2,044
    edited May 2019
    Yes, arm, shoulder and ear are non-ideal, and taken anyway.
    I tend to call it the beak (in the "f" too) although that could be confused for the last bit of it, versus the whole thing. Flag is decent.
    Craig Eliason said:
    but Van Gogh was still recognizable after he cut off his ear.
    Which is of course why it's OK to use ear for the "g". Related:

    BTW, little-known fact: the expression "lend me your ear" was coined by Van Gogh.  (Sorry.)
  • Bhikkhu Pesala
    Bhikkhu Pesala Posts: 210
    See The Anatomy of Type where it is called a “Teardrop Terminal.”
  • Hrant Հրանդ Փափազեան Papazian
    Hrant Հրանդ Փափազեան Papazian Posts: 2,044
    The structural element (versus its ending) must be more than a terminal.
  • Chris Lozos
    Chris Lozos Posts: 1,458
    I have most often heard it as "arm" but the many other names listed above as well.
  • Craig Eliason
    Craig Eliason Posts: 1,436
    Bhikkhu Pesala said:
    See The Anatomy of Type where it is called a “Teardrop Terminal.”
    That's describing the form of the terminal, not the whole appendage.
    So for example it wouldn't be appropriate to say "teardrop terminal" for my leftmost example at all, and for the rightmost one saying "the teardrop terminal should be lighter" would only be referring to the blobby bit at the end, not the whole red part.  
  • Nick Shinn
    Nick Shinn Posts: 2,200
    Ear or arm. But occasionally “sticky-outy bit”.
  • Nikola Kostic
    Nikola Kostic Posts: 42
    Nick Shinn said:
    Ear or arm. But occasionally “sticky-outy bit”.
    I propose "sticky-outy bit" be made official!
  • John Savard
    John Savard Posts: 1,126
    edited May 2019
    If in E and F, all the sideways parts are called arms, then the corresponding curved part of f is likely also called an arm. In the case of r, we're also dealing with an essential structural part of the letter, and there's no possibility of confusion, so I think that of the existing names cited here, "arm" is the best choice, compared to "ear" or "shoulder" which refer to entities different in kind.

    Basically, if in F, both sticky-outy bits are arms, then in Γ the one on the top would clearly be an arm as well, which is precedent enough to cover r. (I'm proposing we keep sticky-outy bit as a generic term that covers both arms and ears.)

    On the other hand, it could be only the one in the middle of E and on the bottom of F, that were called arms from what I've read here; were that the case, I would be unsure and not have a suggestion.
  • Craig Eliason
    Craig Eliason Posts: 1,436
    John Savard said:
    If in E and F, all the sideways parts are called arms, then the corresponding curved part of f is likely also called an arm. 
    Oh? It wouldn't occur to me to call that part of /f an arm, no matter what I might call parts of its capital form. I would say that's the hood, or flag (or in many cases just "ascender" will do). 
  • Hrant Հրանդ Փափազեան Papazian
    Hrant Հրանդ Փափազեան Papazian Posts: 2,044
    I do like hood for the "f". In the "r" however it makes me think of the Hunchback of Notre Dame...
  • Stephen Coles
    Stephen Coles Posts: 1,006
    “Arm” is fine. It can still refer to different kinds of arms.
  • Adam Jagosz
    Adam Jagosz Posts: 689
    edited May 2019
    Mark Simonson said:
    Sprout?
    I like that. In fact, despite the prevailing terminology, type is more like flora than fauna, no? In terms of mobility.
    Otherwise, I like arm, it's the least ambiguous. How about appendix/appendage? :D
  • Vasil Stanev
    Vasil Stanev Posts: 775
    Flag. Like the Б.
  • Mark Simonson
    Mark Simonson Posts: 1,728
    Actually, I think I like "snout" better. I see faces and bodies when I look at letters, not plants, and that part of the /r does seem like a nose or snout to me when I think about it.
  • notdef
    notdef Posts: 168
    I would perhaps call it a branch, but it quickly shoots into something else, and that part I label a terminal. I use the term “forgrening” (“gren” or “grein” translates to branch) to refer to the spot where thin curves grows out of a stem.
  • Christian Thalmann
    Christian Thalmann Posts: 1,977
    Branch is nice!
  • Hrant Հրանդ Փափազեան Papazian
    Hrant Հրանդ Փափազեան Papazian Posts: 2,044
    Branch does not give it enough importance.
  • Nick Shinn
    Nick Shinn Posts: 2,200
    I don’t think we need to be doctrinaire.
    Consider the context.
    If the sticky-outy bit being referred to is terminated by a soft or ball shape—a lobe, as it were—then “ear” is quite apropos, but otherwise, people will know what is meant by “arm” or “branch”.
    It’s not as if the /r has other parts which might be mistaken for each other by imprecise naming.
    And after all, none of the descriptions proposed so far is universal—they are all stumped by the ball and stick (e.g. in Renner’s original design of Futura).
  • Ralph Smith
    Ralph Smith Posts: 30
    Armie McArmFace
  • Craig Eliason
    Craig Eliason Posts: 1,436
    Nick Shinn said:
    And after all, none of the descriptions proposed so far is universal—they are all stumped by the ball and stick (e.g. in Renner’s original design of Futura).
    Modernists' arms are an exception. 
  • John Savard
    John Savard Posts: 1,126
    edited May 2019
    I thought I'd see if I could find some real information.

    This site

    had an image which gave names for a lot of the parts of letters, but which did not settle the question about r.

    Same here:

    This site didn't either,

    but when I watched the video, they referred to the bit on the r as a shoulder, not an arm (nor an ear).

    The question was also not settled by these two more informative sites:



    nor even by


    So there you have it - only one site gave an answer, and that not on the site itself, but within a video.






  • George Thomas
    George Thomas Posts: 645
    edited May 2019
    From the fonts.com link John provided, it seems to me the following describes it:
    Arm/leg – An upper or lower (horizontal or diagonal) stroke that is attached on one end and free on the other.
  • Hrant Հրանդ Փափազեան Papazian
    Hrant Հրանդ Փափազեան Papazian Posts: 2,044
    John Savard said:
    I thought I'd see if I could find some real information.
    The stuff above is the realest.
  • Nick Shinn
    Nick Shinn Posts: 2,200
    I’m not sure that “shoulder” works for spurless designs such as Dax.
  • Adam Jagosz
    Adam Jagosz Posts: 689
    That thing in Dax is an awning : )
  • Bhikkhu Pesala
    Bhikkhu Pesala Posts: 210
    Maybe I am going out on a limb here, but I think arm is by far the best term to use. The shoulder is just the joint between the body and the arm, and a leg is usually at the bottom of the body. 

    I am still waiting for a response from Anatomy of a Typeface. 
  • Hrant Հրանդ Փափազեան Papazian
    Hrant Հրանդ Փափազեան Papazian Posts: 2,044
    We have no doyens of terminology.

Categories