Modifier Letter Rhotic Hook

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Comments

  • Thanks, Khaled. It works in InDesign, but in such a way as to remind me that if I went this route I would need somehow to provide for interpolation of the kerning values across four masters. And it doesn't work at all in Word for Mac. (Do Microsoft programmers actually spend time and energy writing code that prevents OT features they disapprove of?)
  • Paul MillerPaul Miller Posts: 238
    Thanks, Khaled. It works in InDesign, but in such a way as to remind me that if I went this route I would need somehow to provide for interpolation of the kerning values across four masters. And it doesn't work at all in Word for Mac. (Do Microsoft programmers actually spend time and energy writing code that prevents OT features they disapprove of?)
    I think Microsoft programmers don't actually use Microsoft programs because they know how badly they have been programmed !
  • I think there must be some Dickensian preacher type there, sternly denouncing the promiscuous mating of lookups and feature tags. (Meanwhile, the programmers are all toiling away on Macs or LInux boxes!)

    My comfort so far is that no one seems to have done this particularly well before. Here, for example, is Gentium Plus (a font I really like!) in MS Word:
    Something has happened to make the layout engine treat 02DE as zero-width.
  • John HudsonJohn Hudson Posts: 1,902
    edited July 2019
    Something has happened to make the layout engine treat 02DE as zero-width.
    If the glyph is categorised as a mark in the GDEF table, e.g. to be positioned with mark anchoring, its advance width is zero'd by the layout engine. I always manually zero the width of any 'mark' glyphs, and then add width back in GPOS in cases like this.
  • It looks like Gentium Plus tried to do exactly that. 02DE is defined as a mark in GDEF, and then there's this:
    lookup markMarkPositioninglookup0 {
    (268 being the advance width of 02DE) But something is going wrong, and the lookup isn't being applied (in current Word for Mac).
  • Peter BakerPeter Baker Posts: 89
    edited July 2019
    Before this thread dies, here is my set of IPA vowel + rhotic hook combinations (offered with the note that many of my IPA letter-shapes are still under revision):
    When I started to participate in this thread, I thought of 02DE as a sort of joke that Unicode had played on us, but my thinking has (obviously) evolved: now I think that any font that offers a serious implementation of the IPA has to make sure the hook attaches cleanly to all vowel symbols.

    What I didn't know was how difficult this would prove to be. 02DE is an odd duck: a spacing modifier letter that really ought to be attached to the preceding letter via mark attachment. Current shaping engines don't provide for a case like this--not without kludges or in ways transparent to users. My solution (kerning for some combinations and ligatures for others) will work transparently in some apps, but users of Word will have to turn on kerning and ligatures--and I freely admit that many don't know how to do so.

    My thanks to Paul Miller for initiating this thread and to John Hudson and Denis Moyogo Jacquerye for very specific and valuable suggestions.
  • What I didn't know was how difficult this would prove to be. 02DE is an odd duck: a spacing modifier letter that really ought to be attached to the preceding letter via mark attachment. Current shaping engines don't provide for a case like this--not without kludges or in ways transparent to users. My solution (kerning for some combinations and ligatures for others) will work transparently in some apps, but users of Word will have to turn on kerning and ligatures--and I freely admit that many don't know how to do so.

    Any ligatures which you've created can be implemented in 'ccmp' rather than in 'liga' — that way it wouldn't have to be activated by the user since 'ccmp' should always be on.
  • Thanks, André, that works!

    You still have to turn kerning on in Word (for Mac, anyway) before ccmp will be applied, but this saves a click: you don't have to turn on both kerning and standard ligatures. In InDesign, LibreOffice and Apple TextEdit it is still transparent.
  • Thomas PhinneyThomas Phinney Posts: 1,878
    Taking away the user’s ability to turn off ligatures is not something you should do lightly. I might be happy to do it for specific uses and users, but would definitely think twice about using that trick in a regular retail font.
  • John HudsonJohn Hudson Posts: 1,902
    In this case, the 'ligatures' belong in ccmp because they are compositions of letters plus modifiers, so akin to diacritics rather than ligatures between letters.
  • Thomas PhinneyThomas Phinney Posts: 1,878
    Ah, of course. Makes sense, then.
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