Richard: A Dutch text face

Stephen Coles

Yes, and I would argue with Bill. (They are very different designs.) And then we'd all get into a big useless discussion about whether he has an axe to grind with Adobe.

Jasper de Waard

@James: Most typefaces aren't necessary, but useful nonetheless. Garamond and Sensato would, no doubt, work together great, but they still differ in many ways.

Nick Shinn

Jasper, I second Stephen’s opinion.

I, for one, have commented on Frutiger/Myriad and Gotham/Proxima, but in general type designers do not throw their peers under the bus. That is why you may have the impression that “nobody seems to mind”—but it doesn’t mean that it’s not an issue. I don’t believe you are a plagiarist, and I’m not upset by the similarities, just giving you some advice.

If you’re established or a megacorp, then you can get away with (be given the benefit of the doubt) publishing work that looks like something already released by an established foundry. But when you’re starting out, it’s best to be distinctively original. Not only is that better for your reputation and market position, it will help establish a more original way of working.

The way one works is habit-forming. I can understand, and respect, that you have a strong desire to produce work with a professional polish, but if you concentrate too much on this aspect of type design, the danger is that you will kill your spark of genius and become a mere stylist and technician, rather than a genuine designer.

It’s not enough to work without close reference to established designs, although it’s important; one also has to be professionally diligent that one has not inadvertantly duplicated an already existing face. It happens—polygenesis (if that is the correct term) is a natural phenomenon, there are many examples in science, and recently in the type world a number of designers published Fleischmann-esque revivals.

James Hultquist-Todd

By necessary, I meant in the context of what you are looking to achieve.

Jasper de Waard

@Nick Shinn: Your advice is much appreciated, and taken very seriously. I don't know if you would like me to get rid of Sensato, and produce something extremely original first, but if you do, I must disappoint you.

Where one draws the line between what is original and what is an altered copy is arbitrary. As is the line between a 'killed spark of genius' and a professionally polished typeface. I have great respect for your work, and I can see the quality of it, but sometimes I wish you would have polished some things a bit further. No offensiveness intended, my point is: Where one draws either of the lines is a matter of taste, as long as it is within the boundaries of being acceptable.

@James Todd: Still necessary. I want to make something new. Garamond is old.

Now, enough with the talking. Here's an update on Sensato and Sensato Serif.



Cheers! jasper

James Puckett

I want to make something new. Garamond is old.

Both of your designs resemble fonts that were new before you were born. If you really want to make something new, stop working on designs that resemble Trinite and Cronos.

Jackson Showalter-Cavanaugh

Better yet, make something new. New meaning not based on something. You know, new.

Nick Shinn

Where one draws the line between what is original and what is an altered copy is arbitrary.

Where one draws either of the lines is a matter of taste

Are you suggesting that taste is arbitrary?
Or just contradicting yourself?
Surely one’s taste is a quite specific sensibility.

The existence of moral relativity doesn’t justify transgression, as in, “It’s OK to copy—total originality in type design is impossible because it’s impossible to redesign the alphabet, therefore everyone copies to some degree, according to their own moral compass, so if I think creating a polished face is more important than doing original work, then it’s OK for me to copy a lot.”

A variant of this argument states that improving the original justifies the copying—but that doesn’t wash, because who is to say that the copy is really an improvement? Certainly the copyist’s opinion is invalid, because of vested interest.

…sometimes I wish you would have polished some things a bit further.

So do I! All I can say in my defence is that it’s hard enough to do original work in the first place, and you want polish too?! Fortunately I’ve had the opportunity to spiff up some of my earlier designs in upgrading them to OpenType format. Many iconic types have gone through revised versions (redrawing of glyphs, revised spacing metrics) before reaching their optimum state—Dax, Meta and Proxima for example.

Your modus operandi would not be so questionable if your source material were older and/or more generic. But Lexicon and Cronos are fairly distinctive designs by contemporary designers.

In fact, the major discourse in revivals of Garamond, Bodoni, Jenson &c., is the degree of polish or deviation from the norm, that is where your method has true relevance.

As an example of an appropriate degree of divergence from source material, after an appropriate lapse of time (the two are related), consider Maiola, the type which established Veronika Burian’s reputation.

Max Phillips

I agree with most of the posters here that Sensato Serif is still too close to Lexicon for comfort. But for what it's worth, I do actually think that there's enough clear blue water between Sensato Sans and Cronos to justify its existence, and that Sensato would be a useful Web face—like a livelier Lucida—if finished properly. Cronos is soft and brushy; Sensato's terminals make it crisper and springier. And I think it's very appealing in its own right.

But I also think that, while we each have to draw the line between influence and copying for ourselves, if a community of experienced professionals all think you're copying, or close to it, then you might want to reconsider where you've drawn the line.

[Deleted User]

The user and all related content has been deleted.

Nick Shinn

Right James, if you’re going to publish a generic sans in this day and age then the quality (whatever that means) of the design is not enough to stand out from the crowd—it needs to have:

Big family of many weights and styles
OpenType features
Language support
Exceptional web hinting
Marketing

Jackson Showalter-Cavanaugh

and a light-hearted name

Jasper de Waard

@Dunwich: So this is about my age? I don't think Sensato Serif resembles Trinite, simple as that. There might be some unwanted similarities with Cronos, but I still don't consider it too close.
@Jackson: This isn't based on anything...
@Nickster: Sorry if my english isn't perfect, but I think you get the point. In Maxphilips words: "we each have to draw the line between influence and copying for ourselves"
@Maxphilips: Some have now switched from Lexicon to Trinite. Thanks for the kind words about Sensato Sans :-)
@Jmontalbano: I probably won't go as far as Lucida in language support.
@Nickster: You're talking from a sales perspective, right? For most jobs, there's no reason why a font should have a huge amount of styles or language support. If I did it only for the money, I'd have to agree with you, though I think it's a sad thing.

Nick Shinn

You're talking from a sales perspective, right?

No, I said publish, not sell.
If you don’t care whether your font gets used or not, why publish it (and that includes giving it away free), other than vanity?
(It would be altruism if your free font were enabling users of a font-deprived language.)

For most jobs, there's no reason why a font should have a huge amount of styles or language support.

True, but it’s human nature that if you have the choice between two things, and one is loaded with way more features—that you’re unlikely to ever use—for no extra cost (or just a little bit more), that’s what you’ll choose. The Drill Bit Set principle. People like to possess thing of value, and with Adobe and Microsoft having bundled massively loaded fonts, that has devalued basic packages.

And while any particular job might end up using only a few weights of a sans face, how is the typographer to know which those are going to be? It’s nice to have the option, when conceptualizing a layout, of going up or down in text size, and adjusting weight accordingly; say, between Light and Extra Light.

James Puckett

@Dunwich: So this is about my age? I don't think Sensato Serif resembles Trinite, simple as that. There might be some unwanted similarities with Cronos, but I still don't consider it too close.

Sorry I was referring to Lexicon. But my point was that you claim to be doing something new, and what you’re really doing is ripping off two of the most celebrated designers alive, pretending you aren’t, and you’ll probably release the finished fonts for free. That’s pretty shitty. And in the case of Sensato Serif, it might even be illegal in your country. I’m all for doing a revival now and then—I’ve released two myself—but at least I stick to designs by people who are quite dead and credit them.

Jasper de Waard

I'm not going to release it for free. Please do explain what makes Sensato Serif a rip off:

Nick Shinn

As Douglas Adams rendered the old English maxim: “If it looks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, we have at least to consider the possibility that we have a small aquatic bird of the family anatidae on our hands.”

Max Phillips

Jasper, I wish you wouldn't quote me to Nick when I'm actually trying to make a point similar to his.

I personally don't agree with James P. that Sensato Serif and Sans are "ripoffs"; I think that's much too strong a word, and I don't believe that's your intent. But while it's easy to find small points of difference with Lexicon—larger counters in a & e and bigger loop in the g; deeper departures, longer descenders, open juncture in the k, and so on—it's equally easy to see that the overall proportions, rhythms, and color are very, very similar. And, while I think it's very nicely drawn, I just don't see any sort of new idea here that makes it your own. I'm not calling you a thief. But I'm saying that what you've got here is a slight variation on a classic face by a living designer, and that it doesn't seem to add anything individual, anything particular to you, to justify its existence. I think that's what a lot of us are saying. And you don't seem inclined to listen.

Nick Shinn

Look at it another way: there is less difference between Sensato and Lexicon than between many different interpretations of the ultra-classics, Jenson, Garamond, Caslon and Bodoni.

If you have trouble breaking free from precedent, and yet still wish to be true to tradition, consider working without reference. Isolation was a fundamental premise of the Prix de Rome for history painting, an older version of a “reality” competition:
http://vcrfl.tumblr.com/post/22821119983/the-grand-prix-de-rome-in-history-painting

PabloImpallari

It's just me, or Lexicon also looks a little bit like DTL Elzevir?
How they relate to each other? Which one was first?

Jasper de Waard

@Maxphilips: I'm sorry. It was not my intention to create fuzziness on your opinion. I just couldn't think of a better way to describe it. I won't go any further into a discussion about weather it's original or unique enough to justify its existence. All I can say is that I, personally, still feel like it deserves to be finished and released. I'm 'not inclined to listen', because I disagree with you, and don't know any of you well enough to blindly trust you, even if you are more than one.

@Nickster: Then again, the differences between different interpretations of the ultra classics are quite large.

To put some peace to the minds of all of you, I should say this: In just a couple weeks from now I will be doing an internship of 4-6 weeks at a highly reputable and succesful typefoundry. I don't know if foundry X is ok with me shouting on the internet that I'm going there, so I'll keep silent on the name. For now, at least. I will carefully discuss with the great folks working there how, if at all, I should persue the release of Sensato. If they tell me no, than no it is.

I will stop working on Sensato Serif from now on, until the internship, and focus on Sensato Sans instead. Here's an update on Sensato Serif, for what it's worth.



The terminals previously were a bit too Lexicon-like, so I changed them. Same goes for the serifs on top of ascenders.

Cheers! jasper

Ohh, and Pablo: It's just you ;-)

Alex Kaczun

There is nothing wrong in drawing inspiration from other peoples work. I think we all do it. Although, I've completely stopped looking lately. Very difficult to do in practice, however. Every once in a while I see something really exciting and I'm off in a similar direction.

Interesting, as type designers, I thing we all want to improve on things, all-the-time. I can't help but see things that I would readily change in others' fonts. It' instinctual. This need to put your own personal stamp on it. Sit back and say, 'ah'... much better now.

There's too much to do about originality anyhow. Some of the best ideas come from messing with other peoples work. Type is constantly evolving. Who cares if something looks too much like something else. The question should be... is it better? Let the buyer decide. If Helvetica is good enough, so be it. If not, so much the better.

Variety is the spice of life.

@1996type... a really good beginning. Keep it up! You are very talented. I see good things coming from you in the future. May the force be with you young 'typewalker".