AI for custom type

Nadine Chahine

Have you guys seen this?

https://www.linkedin.com/posts/the-brand-identity-group-ltd_scandinavian-gw-studios-have-developed-an-activity-7252362983715082242-r-7N

It's said to launch early next year. 

Simon Cozens

Any evidence that this is anything more than a parametric variable font?

James Hultquist-Todd

And a bad one at that.

JoyceKetterer

It was trained on "open source typefaces" (I assume they mean libre).  @Dave Crossland is that allowed?

James Puckett

It seems like the SIL license fonts would allow them to distribute AI generated fonts but not sell them.

Dave Crossland

Right; training AI on libre fonts is allowed, since all usage scenarios are allowed. But making derivatives from OFL fonts is, as James says, going to require the results to be  (remain) OFL, no matter way process is used to derive them.

Nick Shinn

Why are the results of “training” not “derivative”?
How is it different from, for instance, tweening between Roboto and Noto?

John Hudson

Why are the results of “training” not “derivative”?

I think everyone here is saying that they are derivative, and hence that the terms of whatever license agreement covers the works on which the AI was trained applies to the AI output. This is something on which both commercial font sellers and libre font distributors will likely agree, since both rely on licenses to define terms of use for derivatives (and whether derivatives are permitted at all).

The legal analysis I have read regarding derivative works and AI suggests that questions could be raised in court, both in terms of challenging copyright law regarding derivative works made by AI or, conversely, extending copyright protection to works made by AI. Fun times! 

JoyceKetterer

@Dave Crossland But if they sell a license to their software that would be allowed?  Feels like the whole thing is derivative, no?  

John Hudson

Interesting question, Joyce. I suppose they could claim to be selling a service or an app, and that they are not directly charging for the derived font. In that case, so long as they are not putting any non-OFL restrictions on the derived font, they may be within the letter of the license. Of course, that somewhat undermines the ‘custom AI fonts for branding’ marketing, because the resulting fonts would be derivatives subject to OFL libre rights, so not proprietary to the customer or their brand.

Miles Newlyn

I don't think the people that will be using something like this will even think about proprietary. 'Brand' just means graphics to them.

JoyceKetterer

@John Hudson I'm sure that is the argument but I don't think it floats. I'm not a lawer and it's been a while since I read the OFL license but, I think they could charge for their labor (both to make the app and to twiddle the knobs on the app) but I don't think they can charge licensing for it.  I think @Dave Crossland's team should consider suing to enforce that.

John Hudson

It is pretty clear that they can’t charge licensing for the font, nor place any non-libre restrictions on distribution of the font. But I don’t think there is a restriction on charging for software or services with which the font is associated or bundled: plenty of libre fonts are bundled with commercial software packages. In this case, the legal question, presumably, would be whether the service/software can in any meaningful sense be distinguished from the derivative font.

Kasper Pyndt

Sure, you can probably generate a pretty convincing typeface with AI at some point, just like you can generate a pretty convincing book-cover, poster or website. But can you make it feel human, idiosyncratic and original? (not that all humans are capable of that feat, but you get my point). 

Let's hope that the threat of AI taking away jobs from designers will be replaced with a hope for a future where we have to work less on boring jobs. 

JoyceKetterer

Yeah, I'm pretty convinced it's a tool but not a full replacement.  That said, when the lead designers can work faster there will be less work for other folks.

bojjoe

They're now claiming its all trianed on their "custom work" 

Adam Ladd

^ Original video used to say "trained on open-source typefaces", now, like you stated, "trained exclusively on our own handcrafted typefaces".

The video stating "flat fee" and "unlimited usage" still is unclear if referring to access to the tool or the generated fonts — the latter I imagine would require huge costs if that were the 'promise' somehow (beyond OFL permissions).

The sliders do remind me some of the "Prototypo" tool a few years back. (Sunset in 2020): https://mathey.notion.site/Prototypo-22a55139f0324a7eb82a67bbceaa3a58

Writeup on the site leaves it vague:

Simon Cozens

It takes thousands of fonts to train an AI model from scratch, although I accept that specializing an existing model can be done on a smaller number of "our own handcrafted typefaces". (Although of course that raises the question of what the original model was trained on.)

I still don't think there's any AI here at all, it's just AI marketing sprinkled on top of some variable fonts. But we will see. I'm sure it will be launching soon, even if that is what they said six months ago.

Simon Cozens

One more thought: If they start by saying "trained on open source fonts" and then for whatever reason switch to saying "trained exclusively on our own handcrafted typefaces", how are you going to know if they're telling the truth? This is the whole problem with all closed-source and non-reproducible AI tools: the Weasley Principle applies.

“Ginny!" said Mr. Weasley, flabbergasted. "Haven't I taught you anything? What have I always told you? Never trust anything that can think for itself if you can't see where it keeps its brain!”

John Butler

“AI” fonts seem analogous to “AI” writing. They’re both unsatisfying to look at. Garbage in, garbage out, there is nothing new under the sun. 

Conversely on the human side there is plenty of beauty being created. Lately I’m quite enthused about Benn Zorn’s work.

Ray Larabie

What a blessing for humanity. The long-awaited solution to the global deficit of Latin sans-serif fonts is here, thanks to machines.