Josef Pichler & Sons, Graz paper bag

Hutmann

 I am hoping someone might be able tell what time period this Josef Pichler & Sons, Graz paper bag is from.  The company that made the paper bag is Pojatzi - Graz.  Any help would be greatly appreciated. 

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52031767832_88976d245d_h.jpg

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52031770252_04e086b41f_h.jpg

Best,
Steve

Nick Curtis

Most likely the first quarter of the twentieth century.

Stephen Coles

Given that this kind of geometric sans-serif lettering (especially in lowercase) wasn’t widely common until the late 1920s, I’d guess 1928–40.

Helmut Wollmersdorfer

In the book "500 Jahre Druck in Österreich" (500 Years Printing in Austria) I found no company with name Pojatzi in Graz or Steiermark (Styria) in the name registers and the company tables of volume 2 (-1918) or volume 3 (1918 - 1986).

Maybe Pojatzi was not a printing company but only glued together the bags printed somewhere else.

Graz always had and still has package manufactures. Wall is more in the production of boxes. 

Not an expert for this period of time it looks for me from the time between the two World Wars. Later is always possible. I would not exclude the time before 1918. Artists and designers wanted to be different from Neoclassicism dominating the second half of the 19th century.

IMHO you could go through old newspapers in the archive ANNO https://anno.onb.ac.at/ and try to find advertisements of Pichler. Or try to find similar typefaces in the advertisements.

Helmut Wollmersdorfer

Stephen Coles said:

Given that this kind of geometric sans-serif lettering (especially in lowercase) wasn’t widely common until the late 1920s, I’d guess 1928–40.

I roughly agree. Remarkable is the \Ö in Pichler & Söhne. They used two strokes instead of two dots as accent. This was and is not uncommon. Maybe this typeface could be found somewhere.

Nick Shinn

The lettering and layout is fashionably modernist, but when was a top hat a fashion item, and not just for formal occasions? That would be 1930, when Marlene Dietrich wore a tux and top hat in “Morocco”. Astaire wore one in the movie “Top hat”, 1935. But after the war, unlikely. 

Hutmann

Helmut Wollmersdorfer said:

In the book "500 Jahre Druck in Österreich" (500 Years Printing in Austria) I found no company with name Pojatzi in Graz or Steiermark (Styria) in the name registers and the company tables of volume 2 (-1918) or volume 3 (1918 - 1986).

Maybe Pojatzi was not a printing company but only glued together the bags printed somewhere else.

Graz always had and still has package manufactures. Wall is more in the production of boxes. 

Not an expert for this period of time it looks for me from the time between the two World Wars. Later is always possible. I would not exclude the time before 1918. Artists and designers wanted to be different from Neoclassicism dominating the second half of the 19th century.

IMHO you could go through old newspapers in the archive ANNO https://anno.onb.ac.at/ and try to find advertisements of Pichler. Or try to find similar typefaces in the advertisements.

Thanks. I have searched ANNO but couldn't find anything that was helpful. I think there might be a clue regarding the telephone numbers.  I did find this advertisement from a
"Graz Adressbuch 1938" that has a different telephone number (0056 vs 1167) for the Fabrik. Since the Paper Bag Fabrik telephone number is greater I tend to think it's later.   Unfortunately I couldn't find any later Graz Address Books online.  Do you or anyone else know if there is an online source?  Maybe somewhere else to look for the telephone numbers.  Thank you all for the help! 

• » II. Abteilung Straßen Graz A - K

https://www.findbuch.at/adressbuch-graz-1938

Hutmann

Hutmann said:

Helmut Wollmersdorfer said:

In the book "500 Jahre Druck in Österreich" (500 Years Printing in Austria) I found no company with name Pojatzi in Graz or Steiermark (Styria) in the name registers and the company tables of volume 2 (-1918) or volume 3 (1918 - 1986).

Maybe Pojatzi was not a printing company but only glued together the bags printed somewhere else.

Graz always had and still has package manufactures. Wall is more in the production of boxes. 

Not an expert for this period of time it looks for me from the time between the two World Wars. Later is always possible. I would not exclude the time before 1918. Artists and designers wanted to be different from Neoclassicism dominating the second half of the 19th century.

IMHO you could go through old newspapers in the archive ANNO https://anno.onb.ac.at/ and try to find advertisements of Pichler. Or try to find similar typefaces in the advertisements.

Thanks. I have searched ANNO but couldn't find anything that was helpful. I think there might be a clue regarding the telephone numbers.  I did find this advertisement from a
"Graz Adressbuch 1938" that has a different telephone number (0056 vs 1167) for the Fabrik. Since the Paper Bag Fabrik telephone number is greater I tend to think it's later.   Unfortunately I couldn't find any later Graz Address Books online.  Do you or anyone else know if there is an online source?  Maybe somewhere else to look for the telephone numbers.  Thank you all for the help! 

• » II. Abteilung Straßen Graz A - K

https://www.findbuch.at/adressbuch-graz-1938

I just noticed the last 2 digits "56" are shared. I am not clear of the telephone number association in 1938 Address Book.  I assume 0056 is for the Fabrik and 4056 is for the Niederlage.    

Hutmann

Side Note:  It would not be uncommon to use a Top Hat in a later Logo / Advertisement (regardless of the Top Hat falling out of fashion  but still used for special events, Opera).   

Hutmann

I have some Austrian Hat Makers Newspapers but they only have the Vienna / Austrian representative's telephone number.  This is from 1937.

Hutmann

I found that Pojatzi (Josef) Graz was a Paper Mill.  This is from Steiermark Gemeinde Graz 1938. 

Hutmann

There was a change by 1943 to a 1 1167 number.  I think this was a transition from 4 digit Lever phones used in Graz (the old 4 digit number is also listed).  



Here is some information (in German) but it's not so clear what happened durint this transition period. The question is how long was the 1 1167 number used?

https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geschichte_der_Telefonie_in_Österreich#

Sorry this went off in a totally different direction but if anyone can help it would be greatly appreciated.  

Stephen Coles

Helmut Wollmersdorfer said:

I roughly agree. Remarkable is the \Ö in Pichler & Söhne. They used two strokes instead of two dots as accent. This was and is not uncommon. Maybe this typeface could be found somewhere.

I don’t think there is any type on this bag. It all appears to be unique letterforms. (Though, they could have used a typeface as a model.)

André G. Isaak

It looks like type to me.

The only characters which make me doubt this are the two S's on the seventh line, but that could be caused by wrinkling in the bag or some sort of photographic artefact. The other duplicate letters appear quite regular. But then you likely have a better trained eye than I.

John Savard

I was wondering if the telephone number could be a clue to help narrow it down. Of course, it was in 1936 that the word 'Telefon' got replaced by 'Fernsprecher' in German.

Craig Eliason

The mottled and overlapped hat in the same ink suggests to me this was lithographed, not letterpressed. I would guess there won't be a metal-type "smoking gun" here.

Helmut Wollmersdorfer

Craig Eliason said:

The mottled and overlapped hat in the same ink suggests to me this was lithographed, not letterpressed. I would guess there won't be a metal-type "smoking gun" here.

Yes, zooming into the picture the hat looks brushed. That's a technique Henri de Toulouse-Lautrec used on stone for the famous posters. It works with a little fine-meshed sieve and e.g. a teeth-brush, spreading droplets of greasy ink on the stone (or zinc plate). Same principle like modern air-brush. The contour of the hat looks made by a simple cut mask. These sieves or screens are still available in shops for artists (I have this tool), and can be used for watercolour work, copper edging etc.

Hutmann

Thank you for all the help!  I think it might be early 1950s (could be later).  This is based on info  (from Graz Address Books telephone numbers from 1940 - 1954) I received from Steiermärkischen Landesarchivs.

John Savard

Hutmann said:

I think it might be early 1950s (could be later).

I'm very puzzled here, since some of the posts here supplied proof that it had to be before 1943, and very likely before 1936.

Hutmann

John Savard said:

Hutmann said:

I think it might be early 1950s (could be later).

I'm very puzzled here, since some of the posts here supplied proof that it had to be before 1943, and very likely before 1936.

From the Address Book information I received the "8656" Niederlage (Store/Warehouse) doesn't appear until 1949/50. Here are the emails.

 I first asked about the Fabrik / Factory telephone number "1167".

"The telephone number 0056 for the hat factory Josef Pichler & Sons is listed in the Graz address book up to the volume from 1949/50. We do not have an address book from 1951. In the address book of 1952/53 and in the following volumes, the number 0056 no longer appears.

 In the 1941 volume (page 578), 11167 appears as the second telephone number. We have no address books for the period from 1942 to 1948. In the volumes from 1949/50 and 1952/53 this number is changed to 1167 and in the volumes from 1954/55 to 1968 it is changed to 81167.

 For research in other address books, we recommend contacting the Graz City Archives (A-8020 Graz, Schiffgasse 4, phone: ++43 316 872 7620, email: stadtarchiv@stadt.graz.at).

Kind regards For the Styrian provincial government The Director of the Styrian Provincial Archive i.V."

 "Zur Hutfabrik Josef Pichler & Söhne ist im Grazer Adressenbuch bis zum Band von 1949/50 die Telefonnummer 0056 angeführt. Ein Adressenbuch von 1951 liegt uns nicht vor. Im Adressenbuch von 1952/53 und in den nachfolgenden Bänden scheint die Rufnummer 0056 nicht mehr auf.

 Im Band von 1941 (Seite 578) erscheint als zweite Telefonnummer 11167. Für den Zeitraum von 1942 bis 1948 liegen uns keine Adressenbücher vor. In den Bänden von 1949/50 und 1952/53 ist diese Nummer abgeändert in 1167 und in den Bänden von 1954/55 bis 1968 abgeändert in 81167.

 Zur Recherche in weiteren Adressenbüchern empfehlen wir eine Kontaktnahme mit dem Grazer Stadtarchiv (A-8020 Graz, Schiffgasse 4, Telefon: ++43 316 872 7620, E-Mail: stadtarchiv@stadt.graz.at).

 Mit freundlichen Grüßen Für die Steiermärkische Landesregierung Der Direktor des Steiermärkischen Landesarchivs i.V."

I sent a follow up email and asked about the Niederlage / Store, Warehouse "8656" telephone number.

"The hat factory Josef Pichler & Sons had a place of purchase (store, warehouse) in the house at Murgasse 10, called "Zur Hutmaschine / The Hat Machine". This point of sale is in the Graz address books up to 1953 a separate telephone number is also given, but not in the subsequent address books from 1954.

In the address book from 1941, two telephone numbers are listed for the point of sale, namely 4056 and 55167. The address book from 1949/50 lists the telephone numbers 7545 and 8656 for the point of sale instead. The address book from 1952/53 finally only lists the telephone number 8656 for the point of sale.

Kind regards For the Styrian provincial government The director of the Styrian Provincial Archive i.V."

"Die Hutfabrik Josef Pichler & Söhne verfügte über eine erkaufsstelle (Niederlage) im Haus Murgasse 10, genannt „Zur Hutmaschine“. In den Grazer Adressenbüchern bis 1953 ist zu dieser Verkaufsstelle auch eine gesonderte Telefonnummer angegeben, nicht jedoch in den nachfolgenden Adressenbüchern ab 1954.

 Im Adressenbuch von 1941 sind zur Verkaufsstelle zwei elefonnummern angeführt, nämlich 4056 und 55167. Das Adressenbuch von 1949/50 verzeichnet stattdessen die Rufnummern 7545 und 8656 zur Verkaufsstelle. Das Adressenbuch von 1952/53 führt schließlich nur mehr die Telefonnummer 8656 der Verkaufsstelle an.

 Mit freundlichen Grüßen Für die Steiermärkische Landesregierung Der Direktor des Steiermärkischen Landesarchivs i.V."

Nick Shinn

Well sleuthed!

It just goes to show that using style to date an artefact is no guarantee of accuracy, as historic genres overlap on the time scale.

And that’s without revivals.

So, just as today ’90s fashion trends are making a comeback (can’t say I’ve noticed, I just read about it), maybe there was nostalgia for the ’30s in 1950’s Graz.

Another possible scenario: printing from hand-applied ground (stochastic!) was a bit out of an anachronism, but something that might occur in litho’ed bag-printing, a down-market trade, with in-house staff doing it the way they always have, rendering geometric letters by hand (with templates) for a sharp and professional finish.

Hutmann

Nick Shinn said:

Well sleuthed!

It just goes to show that using style to date an artefact is no guarantee of accuracy, as historic genres overlap on the time scale.

And that’s without revivals.

So, just as today ’90s fashion trends are making a comeback (can’t say I’ve noticed, I just read about it), maybe there was nostalgia for the ’30s in 1950’s Graz.

Another possible scenario: printing from hand-applied ground (stochastic!) was a bit out of an anachronism, but something that might occur in litho’ed bag-printing, a down-market trade, with in-house staff doing it the way they always have, rendering geometric letters by hand (with templates) for a sharp and professional finish.

Thanks. My guess is it's early 1950s but it could be later. From the info the "1167" Fabrik telephone number was used to 1968. I decided not to ask about the "8656' Niederlage telephone number because I didn't want to be a pest . It's possible that number was also used until 1968.

Graz is a very traditional / cultured city (I have visited there a few times) so it doesn't surprise me that they would have continued to use older labor intensive printing techniques to get a desired visual effect / impact.

John Savard

Hutmann said:

From the Address Book information I received the "8656" Niederlage (Store/Warehouse) doesn't appear until 1949/50.

Thank you; now I understand my mistake.

Obviously, it's impossible to foresee the future.

But it is possible to remember the past. And so, as pretty much everyone in Graz knew that if someone's phone number used to be 1167, now one had to dial 1-1167, there's no reason that one has to print the modern form of the telephone number on one's bags if one is aiming for a nostalgic effect.

Thus, I confused merely suggestive evidence with proof.

Nick Shinn

I was tidying up recently and came across this from 2010—when I bought some garments from an old menswear shop in small town Ontario, that was closing down.
They had no top hats, cane or white gloves in stock, the top hat was used to signify classy, old-fashioned, traditional, upscale gear. The logo is no doubt clip art, might even have been a letterpress block at one time. Kind of like how the latest software uses a paper clip to signify attachments, although many young folk may never have seen or used such a thing.