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The Number sign—now and then—across languages.
Claudio Piccinini
Posts: 670
While wondering how to draw the number sign for my digital version of De Vinne, I stumbled into these very interesting considerations by Jonathan Hoefler:
«Nº was the number sign before # became a number sign, and it refreshingly serves this one and only purpose. Compare the #, which when preceding a number is read as “number” (“#1 in my class”), but when following a number means “pound” or “pounds”²2 If you’re curious what the # symbol has to do with the abbreviation lbs., here’s one possible missing link. (“70# uncoated paper”), leading to printshop pile-ups like “#10 envelope, 24# bond.” To programmers, a # can mean either “ignore what follows” (as in a Python comment) or “use what follows” (when referencing a page fragment, or a Unicode value in html.) To a proofreader, a # means “insert space,” so in the middle of a numbered list, the notation “line #” does not mean “line number,” but rather “add a line space.” Because of #’s resemblance to the musical symbol for “sharp” (♯), it’s a frequent stand-in for the word “sharp,” and often the correct way of rendering a trademarked term such as The C# Programming Language. The # is rapidly assuming musical duties as well, especially in online databases, leading to catalog collisions like “Prelude & Fugue #13 in F#.” How fortunate a designer would be to have a numero symbol, with which to write “Prelude & Fugue Nº 13 in F#,” or “Nº 10 Envelope, 24# bond.”»
David Jonathan Ross, in Roslindale, uses the common form (just stress reversed) but I was wondering how much, and to which degree, in the late 1890s/early 1900s, the current /# was in use, as opposed to /Nº.
In fact, in Italy we have almost no use for /# as opposed to /Nº. When we list numbers we always use either N. or No.
Your thoughts based on experience?
«Nº was the number sign before # became a number sign, and it refreshingly serves this one and only purpose. Compare the #, which when preceding a number is read as “number” (“#1 in my class”), but when following a number means “pound” or “pounds”²2 If you’re curious what the # symbol has to do with the abbreviation lbs., here’s one possible missing link. (“70# uncoated paper”), leading to printshop pile-ups like “#10 envelope, 24# bond.” To programmers, a # can mean either “ignore what follows” (as in a Python comment) or “use what follows” (when referencing a page fragment, or a Unicode value in html.) To a proofreader, a # means “insert space,” so in the middle of a numbered list, the notation “line #” does not mean “line number,” but rather “add a line space.” Because of #’s resemblance to the musical symbol for “sharp” (♯), it’s a frequent stand-in for the word “sharp,” and often the correct way of rendering a trademarked term such as The C# Programming Language. The # is rapidly assuming musical duties as well, especially in online databases, leading to catalog collisions like “Prelude & Fugue #13 in F#.” How fortunate a designer would be to have a numero symbol, with which to write “Prelude & Fugue Nº 13 in F#,” or “Nº 10 Envelope, 24# bond.”»
David Jonathan Ross, in Roslindale, uses the common form (just stress reversed) but I was wondering how much, and to which degree, in the late 1890s/early 1900s, the current /# was in use, as opposed to /Nº.
In fact, in Italy we have almost no use for /# as opposed to /Nº. When we list numbers we always use either N. or No.
Your thoughts based on experience?
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You can use the locl feature to change # by uni2116 for Italien language - but I'm not sure its appropriate.
I was more wondering if it would be nice to design the /# with horizontal instead of vertical stress, as it is in Roslindale, or in Carter's Miller. And I was wondering if there were historical lead examples to look at.
Here’s how it’s designed in Miller (also vertically slanted) but not sure it’s appropriate for the “robust and eccentric” De Vinne. :-)
• Shady Characters wrote about the octothorpe: https://shadycharacters.co.uk/2011/05/the-octothorpe-part-1-of-2/
• The only reason ‘№’ is a character on its own is the lack of an ‘N’ on Russian typewriters.
I know “№” is forcedly added because of that, but actually I like the idea of having it, maybe accessible through a stylistic alternate, for “numero” in Italy would not be written using /#.
Oh, all right; "Nº 10 Envelope, 24℔ bond." then.
1. The Shady Characters blog post linked above has been superseded by the chapter in Keith Houston's book Shady Characters, in which, if I recall correctly, he persuasively establishes that the word "octothorpe" is nonsense created by the AT&T engineers, and never had a legitimate etymology. (This is also explored and debated in other blog posts on his site.) Bringhurst's etymology is appealingly logical, but seems to amount to wishful thinking. The tic-tac-toe symbol may have been used in cartography to signify a village, but its name is modern, and likely arbitrary.
2. The symbol # is a stylized ligature of the Latin abbreviation lb, for libra, "pound." Just as "et" became "&," so "lb" became "#." It is easy to see how this occurred if you try writing out "lb" in cursive, quickly and repeatedly. The transformation was helped along by the traditional Latin use of a macron or bar to mark abbreviations. The two ascenders became the vertical strokes and the bowl of the b, and/or the macron/vinculum/bar, supplied the horizontals.
3. It is interesting that Hoefler, as quoted above, does not mention "hashtags." I do not know when those remarks of his were written — very possibly before the advent of social media — but this use for the symbol is now ubiquitous. The glyph has of course been known variously in common speech as a number sign, a pound sign, or a hash sign. The last of these names, particularly prevalent in computer programming, became the preferred term in a social media context. A hashtag is thus a tag (descriptor) preceded by a hash [sign], but the word hashtag is now often used incorrectly to refer to the sign itself. See also https://www.etymonline.com/search?q=hash.
Josh
[Edited to clarify and add info.]
The Nº combination originates with scribal abbreviation. The first letter of the word is followed by the last letter superscripted (Latin: “numero”), which allows for quick and compact composition of common words.
Now, my comment about № only being a character due to Russian typewriters is not the entire story. It has taken on a life of its own, and is often stylised differently from the regular N, more like an upright cursive swashy shape. Today it is used more akin to the &: giving display text an ornamental historical flavour.
And yes, I always follow the same rationale: when I design a symbol, a sign or a typographic element, I calibrate it according to the height and proportions of the glyphs which is meant to accompany, in this case the numerals.
"Hashtag" is clearly referred to the tags, in italian we call it "cancelletto" (which is a sort of term of endearment for “gate", or “small gate"). Which is the main, historical meaning of "hash" in english? (I mean, before its use in notations), if it has one?
The trick is to get it to work with both lining and oldstyle figures.
But when I refer to my Fantastic Four collection I write, say #140, when I refer to an italian publication I write n.140 or N.140.
/numbersign.lf/
P.S. I’ll get back to you soon, and thanks much for all of your help!
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hatch_mark
In italian, it should be simply “tacche".