Is gj an issue for everyone?
Craig Eliason
Posts: 1,436
In quite a few designs I play with, the /g and the /j that play nicely with all other letters crash into each other. My options as I see them:
1. Allow the crash.
2. Modify base /g and/or base /j (most likely the latter).
3. Make a /g_j ligature.
4. Make a contextual alternate (most likely /j.short).
If it weren't for the word "logjam" this would almost never come up (although a million and a half people do live in Gwangju). The /q also occupies that right-side descender space, but accommodating a "qj" combination feels certainly low priority.
I most often elect option 4 if the crash looks unhappy. But I'm wondering if a misguided sense of what a /j should look like keeps forcing me into accommodations that other designers don't face.
1. Allow the crash.
2. Modify base /g and/or base /j (most likely the latter).
3. Make a /g_j ligature.
4. Make a contextual alternate (most likely /j.short).
If it weren't for the word "logjam" this would almost never come up (although a million and a half people do live in Gwangju). The /q also occupies that right-side descender space, but accommodating a "qj" combination feels certainly low priority.
I most often elect option 4 if the crash looks unhappy. But I'm wondering if a misguided sense of what a /j should look like keeps forcing me into accommodations that other designers don't face.
0
Comments
-
Craig, Truthfully, I have never seen this as an issue. Can you show some examples in fonts that reveal this problem?
0 -
Top line shows a bold j with teardrop that crashes; second line shows the alternate j I made.
In the middle is a design that doesn't crash but gets distractingly tight.
Bottom is the crash I'm pondering now.
I suppose I just need to rethink the idea of /j's hook turning all the way around and coming back up. But it looks quite nice when there's room for it to tuck under other letters.
For the record I should add to my above options
5. Solve with positive kerning.
But that's no help for examples like these.
0 -
I know how I can solve all these. I'm just looking for either a) assurance that this /j combo is a pain in the ass we're all wrestling with, or b) feedback that I'd be doing myself a favor to rethink my /js from scratch.
Do f-ligs exist and not j-ligs because /f's hook itself is a more problematic shape, or just because /f's hook potentially causes problems with an ensuing /b/f/h/k/l/i/j/í/ì/ï/etc. whereas /j's hook only gets into trouble with a preceding /g and /q?0 -
The bottom-right of a (binocular) "g" shouldn't need to protrude that much, and in a serif font the left of the "j" can be loose enough. It can be a problem in a sans... but since a sans can't get to the pinnacles of readability anyway to me there's rarely reason to make to sans "j" so exuberant. (Which is not to say that Futura's is at all recommended! :-)
When needed (like in your examples) I agree #4 is best.
BTW this sort of thing happens a lot in Armenian, due to its frequent right-pointing desenders. Speaking of Armenian, it might actually suggest the solution below (which I know has been done in Latin, but might be useful more often).
BTW the population of Heilongjiang province is over 38 million. :-)0 -
Of course that can/should kick in alongside the other approaches.Craig Eliason said:5. Solve with positive kerning.
Especially in this OT age, I wouldn't rethink a letter just because of a rare problem.feedback that I'd be doing myself a favor to rethink my /js from scratch.
It must be due to the orders of magnitude greater frequency of the former. (To a lesser extent that ascenders tend/need to be longer than descenders.)Do f-ligs exist and not j-ligs because ....0 -
Making life progressively and contextually difficult for myself in Gabriola:
0 -
The gj combination is rare in English, but common in Albanian:
gjashtëmbëdhjetë parapsikologjia gjashtëkëndësh gjeologjikisht gjeometrikisht gjithëkombëtar përgjithësisht bioteknologji gjashtëdhjetë imagjinueshëm mikrobiologji shumëngjyrësh antropologji argjendurina dermatologji farmakologji inteligjencë legjislacion përgjithmonë përgjithshëm përgjithësim përgjithësoj regjistrohem shumëgjuhësh argjentinas argjinaturë arkeologjik bashkëngjis entomologji gjenealogji gjermanisht gjibraltari gjimbajtëse homogjenësi inteligjent korrigjohet muzikologji nitrogjenit psikologjia përgjegjësi përzgjedhje regjistrimi regjistruar tungjatjeta virgjëresha virgjëreshë zhvirgjëroj angjinarja argjentina arkeologji astrologji fiziologji frëngjisht gjakmarrje gjeologjik gjeometrik gjerësisht gjithashtu gjuhësisht heterogjen imagjinatë imagjinuar imunulogji kronologji ligjërisht logjikisht logjistikë magjistare megjithatë megjithëse morfologji ndërgjegje psikologji përgjegjës përgjigjet përgjigjur shigjetari sociologji teknologji agjentëve argjendar babagjysh belgjiane biologjik dygjuhësh gjakpirës gjenetikë gjenocidi gjeografi gjeologji gjeometri gjeraqina gjermanët gjithkush gjithmonë gjyqtarët hidrogjen imagjinoj legjendar letargjik ligjëratë ligjërues liturgjik magjepsës magjistar norvegjia origjinal pasagjerë patologji përgjigje regjiment shigjetar strategji sugjeruar thëngjill vigjilent zgjedhjet algjeria analogji apologji asgjësoj belgjian belgjika biologji ekologji energjik gjeldeti gjenetik gjenocid gjeorgji gjermani gjilpërë gjithçka gjithësi gjuajtje gjuhësor gjykatat gjymtyrë gjyzlykë homogjen kirurgji legjendë letargji ligjërim ngjarjet ngjashëm oksigjen origjinë pasagjer shigjetë sugjeroj sugjeron tragjedi ungjilli urgjencë virgjëri zgjedhim zgjedhje zgjidhje zoologji agjenci agjërim argjend argjent argjilë dëgjuar energji engjëjt engjëll gjarpër gjashtë gjatësi gjelbër gjendje gjendër gjeolog gjerdan gjethkë gjetkëz gjigant gjinjtë gjinjës gjirafë gjuetar gjuhësi gjurmët gjykatë gjyqtar logjikë mëngjes ngjarje ngjelmë përligj tezgjah tragjik tregjet ungjill urgjent vagjinë virgjër zgjedhë zgjerbe zgjerim zgjodhi zgjohem agjent apogje djegje dëgjim dëgjoj dëgjon egjipt ergjiz ergjëz evgjit gjallë gjalpë gjedhë gjergj gjethe gjetje gjetur gjinor gjitar gjithë gjiton gjonth gjueti gjunjë gjurmë gjykim gjyshe gjysmë gjëmoj grigjë kolegj ligjet logjik magjar magjik ngjalë ngjire ngjyra ngjyrë qengjë vigjëz zgjedh zgjidh zgjuar zgjyrë zogjtë asgjë gjalm gjanë gjatë gjemb gjeni gjerë gjeth gjije gjini gjobë gjoks gjuaj gjuhë gjumë gjysh gjëra lagje luigj magji ngjer ngjis ngjit orgji qengj qingj ungji vegjë gjah gjak gjej gjel gjem gjen gjer gjoc gjon gjor gjyp gjyq ligj ungj vgje gji gju gjë
5 -
It's also relatively common in Danish:
offentliggjort holmbergjávri færdiggjort gjermundsen gjelleråsen gjendesheim gjetmundsen gjaerevoll gjeruldsen gjensidige kvergjelme gjemlestad gjertssen gjertsson gjengseth gjestland gjestvang gjærevoll ingegjerd lingjærde gjertsen gjertrud valgjerd gjertine gjertson gjessing uafgjort uopgjort elgjæger gjelstad gjerstad gjermund gjelsten gjerdrum gjelsvik gjekstad gjersøe ingjerd ingjald gjørdis gjønnes gjemnes torgjer gjeving gjettum gjerløw gjesdal gjerald gjendem gjestad figgjo gjerde gjøvik gjøran gjølme gjerpe gjeble talgje gjorde did gjende gjalde gjert logje gjald gjøen gjuke gjone gjoll gjems gjern gjøs gjul
2 -
And more so in Icelandic:
munaðarleysingjahæli nýfrjálshyggjumaður endurskipuleggja fyrirhyggjusamur gjaldeyrissjóður höfðingjasleikja næringarráðgjafi svertingjahundur hamingjusamlega heiladyngjubotn hryggleysingjar skattaeftirgjöf þjóðernishyggja eftirliggjandi eggjahvítuefni fyrirbyggjandi gjörgæsludeild höfðingjasetur kynþáttahyggja undirliggjandi uppgjafarsinni óhamingjusamur ósveigjanlegur eyðileggjandi flæmingjaland hamingjusamur hamingjuóskir helsingjaeyri löggjafarþing metnaðargjarn náttúruhyggja strengjabrúða sveigjanlegur sveigjanleiki umhyggjusamur vingjarnlegur vingjarnleiki áhyggjufullur óbeygjanlegur ófullnægjandi útafliggjandi beygjanlegur eggjastokkur frjálshyggja fullnægjandi fósturfylgja gjaldfallinn handsprengja heimanfylgja heimskingjar hryggjarsúla hyggjuþungur jarðsprengja lausnargjald nautnahyggja nærliggjandi samliggjandi sprengjuleit strandlengja sveigjanlegt uppbyggjandi veggjaskraut vingjarnlega afmælisgjöf aðliggjandi barnsfylgja bylgjulengd endurbyggja endurgjalda flísaleggja fyrirbyggja gelgjuskeið gjaldgengur gjaldmiðill gjörsamlega gjörvilegur helvítisgjá krossleggja lokauppgjör mengjafræði nægjanlegur orðagjálfur skattleggja skipuleggja sveigjanleg áhyggjuefni áhyggjulaus ánægjulegur árásargjarn örbylgjuofn þrautseigja þyrilvængja algjörlega deilugjarn eggjahvíta eggjarauða eggjaskurn eigingjarn eyðileggja fallbeygja fjölhyggja flóðbylgja framfylgja framleigja framlengja gjaldeyrir gjaldþrota gjörvallur hefnigjarn jarðsyngja kortleggja málafylgja niðurlægja nægjanlega sanngjarnt skeggjaður söðulgjörð tortryggja undirlægja veggjakrot verðleggja ánægjulegt íþyngjandi ósanngjarn efahyggja eftirgjöf fjarlægja fullnægja gestgjafi gjaldkeri gjaldþrot hyggjuvit leigjandi liggjandi meingjörð orkugjafi ráðleggja sanngjarn sanngjörn sprengjur síðslægja teygjudýr tollgjald umkringja vátryggja vörugjald ábyrgjast ánægjuleg ættingjar óhamingja óskhyggja þiggjandi þráhyggja dreggjar efagjarn fargjald geggjast hamingja löggjafi misgjörð ráðgjafi sprengja strengja umhyggja véfengja áhyggjum áhyggjur ógjarnan örbylgja örbylgju örgjörvi útleggja þegjandi afsegja bryggja engjast flengja fleygja forgjöf gjarnan gjálfra gægjast hneggja hneigja hringja hryggja klingja löggjöf ráðgjöf skyggja sleggja slengja smeygja spengja styggja sveigja svelgja svengja sílægja tryggja uppgjöf uppgjör áhyggja íþyngja ófrægja óánægja útgjöld útlægja þrengja algjör beygja birgja byggja bylgja byrgja drýgja dylgja dyngja fylgja gjafir gjalda gjamma gjarna gjóður gjörla hengja hyggja kergja klígja kyngja leggja leigja lengja liggja plægja pyngja rengja slægja syngja syrgja tengja teygja tyggja tyggjó velgja ánægja þiggja þyngja bægja eggja ergja eygja fægja gjald gjamm gjarn gjóla gjósa gjóta gjöld gjöra gjörð gjúga gægja gígja hægja lægja nægja rægja segja tygja vægja vígja yngja þegja gjöf gjá
3 -
Also Norwegian (both forms), and to a lesser extent Swedish.0
-
j.short? I did once try solving the issue with a j.long...
0 -
Since text is sometimes more than one line :-/ bad idea.Simon Cozens said:j.short? I did once try solving the issue with a j.long...0 -
"Short" as in "the leftward reaching part is short." Maybe "narrow" would make more sense. But that's just a name internal to the edit file.Simon Cozens said:j.short? I did once try solving the issue with a j.long...0 -
Over the years, I've come to the conclusion that there is usually no good reason to make the tail of the /j extend very far to the left. Not only does it cause problems with /g, it is also literally sticks out when a /j falls along the left margin of a paragraph. It's not a /g without a bowl, it's an /i with a descender.6
-
Unless it does really mean short. :-)Craig Eliason said:
Maybe "narrow" would make more sense.
Except that helps readability – because not being an "i" is indeed its main job. Especially when the descender space is short (as it generally should be in a text face).Mark Simonson said:there is usually no good reason to make the tail of the /j extend very far to the left.
2 -
Except that helps readability.I'd like to see the evidence.1
-
Well I've seen evidence for either... but you can't prove something doe not exist, so... :-)Mark Simonson said:I'd like to see the evidence.
Maybe we can agree that information comes only from contrast. And that's crucial here even if you believe we read simply by compiling individual letters. If you believe we also read via boumas* the relevance of extenders in particular becomes huge.
* https://typedrawers.com/discussion/2285/brain-sees-words-as-pictures
0 -
Also used in Dutch:belastingjaar dagje droogjes fruitvliegje galgje hangjongeren knipoogje langjarig modelvliegtuigje mugje terugjagen tuigje twijgje twintigjarig vaagjes vernislaagje vuurvliegjes waslaagje wegjagen wiegje wigje
2 -
This is definitely my best ligature.
1 -
The “protruding tail” /j issue also occurs at the beginning of lines. I sometimes wonder whether it wouldn’t be better to place the left sidebearing at the extrema, with the added kerning elsewhere that would entail, rather than make the character the same width as /i.
However, I generally keep the tail quite close to the main stem, so it’s rarely an issue for me.If you really want to sort it:
0 -
In Spanish, Futura is a curse word.
2 -
Like Mark, I don't see as much of a need for a full looping tail on the j.
0 -
Sometimes you can't pull it off, but when you can (often with the help of a modest positive kern) it can help both the character and the readability of the font.
0 -
In German, g can occur at the end of words, and j at the beginning, so there can be any number of compound words containing gj, like Anzugjacke, langjährig, wegjagen, siebzigjährig, ...2
-
Dutch uses compound words as well. Also we use -je the same way als the Germans, Austrians and German-speaking Swiss use -li or -chen to indicate a ‘smaller version’ of something. So ‘heg’ and ‘haag’ (hedge) may turn into ‘haagje’ resp. ‘hegje’ (small hedge). Stomach is ‘maag’, so a small stomach may be called ‘maagje’, etc. More than half of the examples shown by @Erwin Denissen a few posts back are such cases. So gj definitely is an issue in Dutch and Flemish. Contrary to German typographic tradition, in Dutch one may also ligate between syllabes and between the words that make up a compound word. From that point of view, designing a ‘gj’ ligature could be an option for languages other than German. Positive kerning to avoid gj from clashing leaves a (big) gap within the x-height which decreases legibility. But why create a ligature, when the design of ‘j’ can be done less troublesome? I think that is the kind of reasoning why designers like Van Krimpen and Gerrit Noordzij preferred to design a ‘j’ with a tail only. By the way: The ‘j’ i Noordzij’s ‘Ruse’ is an exception in his work. And yes, the name of the city of The Hague origins in ‘hedge’ or ‘shrubbery’.2
-
The combination “gj” occurs often in Norwegian. I find a positive kern almost always too disruptive. If the collision isn’t too messy, touching is not a problem. The safest solution is to have a fairly narrow j shape (if it fits the design language). It’ll also comes in handy in other natural (j following an ogonek, for example) and constructed (brand names) combinations.
I’ve found that many such decisions depend on (language) context. One very obvious example is that the Ukrainian її pair needs ample positive kerning – even to the point of disrupting the rhythm, as to not confuse with ії/їі. Hence, I’m doubtful of the value of binary character checks to determine language support.3 -
I tend to go for the monocle /g whenever I can, which also helps me develop bolder weights more easily. The /j should be not too fancy in my opinion, because some letters like the /y (at least IMPO) should rhyme and also be fancy. Also, there has to be something in the top part of the/j to balance the tail internally, and there is not so much a spur can do for that balance.0
Categories
- All Categories
- 43 Introductions
- 3.7K Typeface Design
- 799 Font Technology
- 1K Technique and Theory
- 617 Type Business
- 444 Type Design Critiques
- 541 Type Design Software
- 30 Punchcutting
- 136 Lettering and Calligraphy
- 83 Technique and Theory
- 53 Lettering Critiques
- 483 Typography
- 301 History of Typography
- 114 Education
- 68 Resources
- 498 Announcements
- 79 Events
- 105 Job Postings
- 148 Type Releases
- 165 Miscellaneous News
- 269 About TypeDrawers
- 53 TypeDrawers Announcements
- 116 Suggestions and Bug Reports