Do different languages have different tastes in type?

Mostafa Hajizadeh

Do speakers of different languages prefer different styles for type? Based on what I’ve seen, it seems the French prefer types with higher contrast and German people usually use types that are a little wide and have big x-height. I’m not sure if these “feelings” are true.

If there is, how is it dealt with? Do you target specific languages in your designs?

I’m asking this because Persian and Arabic both use the same script, and technically can share the same fonts easily, but have big aesthetic differences.

James Puckett

Within writing systems I don’t think this has as much to do with languages as it does with regional design trends. I live in New York City, and typography here is very strongly influenced by popular local designers. Designers here seem to follow trends that start in high-end magazine and package design as well as whatever Pentagram is doing. So we get a lot of H&FJ and Font Bureau. Clients in DC tend to be nerdy, so typography down there often seems to stem from bookish or academic trends. On the opposite end of the country taste tends to be very different, as are font choices. Europe still uses lots of Spierkerfonts and sans families based on Frutiger, which leads some huge American companies (Microsoft, Apple, AmericanAirlines) to lean that way.

But a new trend seems to be globalizing latin font trends—plagiarism. It’s common for designers all over the world to “seek inspiration” on sites like Behance and Dribbble, which usually means plagiarizing existing layouts, color palettes, and font choices. So now I see designers in Rio de Janeiro, Brazil, Wrocław, and Hyderabad deploying the same fonts in the same way they were deployed last week in Brooklyn.

Writing systems do create splits in graphic design culture. Popular new typefaces generally do not have analogues in other writing systems. So the Gotham trend has not hit the non-Latin world. I don’t expect this to change, because interesting new designs generally come from small type studios that don’t have the resources to create multi-script typefaces and market their fonts globally. I think that only Monotype is in a position to create and market like that, but their focus is expanding coverage of existing designs rather than creating new ones. Dalton Maag may break new ground in this area if their success and growth continues in the coming years.

Deleted Account

in text type design?

Nick Shinn

Languages don’t care about typefaces.
However, they do show some preference for diacritic style.
Polish is adamant that its kreska is no ordinary acute—can’t you see it’s steeper?
French likes its cedilla, while Romanian goes for the commaaccent.
English can’t stand any accents, while Czech can’t get enough.
Finish is dotty over diereses.
Walloon has a thing for apostrophes.
Hungarian likes acutes so much it uses them almost exclusively, and even doubles them up.
Most languages discriminate against the tittle, not even considering it to be a bona fide diacritic (merely part of /i)—except for Turkish.
And so on…

Mostafa Hajizadeh

So, you say it’s not about languages. It’s about people of different cities and countries. That makes sense.

The same globalization trend is happening in this part of the world. People just see what’s new and cool here and there and do something similar.

Nassim is a typeface clearly with Arabic taste, but Rosetta Type is marketing it as a type for Persian too. Technically, it’s true because it supports Persian-specific characters and has correct features.fea, but it’s just not our type! BBC got the type and used it for all of its websites (Arabic, Persian, etc.), and now everybody is using a pirated copy for their websites, because BBC did it and because it’s already a web font that works well in all browsers and systems. So much for local design styles.

David, I’m not sure if you were asking James or me, but I was talking type in general, both text and display. (Although examples I made about France and Germany were from text type.)

Nick Shinn

You really do need to have a local/indigenous type culture of at least one type foundry, to provide a local feel to typography. What you describe may be a problem, but it is also an opportunity. It's not enough for a local foundry just to publish, though, it has to market, and that includes PR.

James Puckett

Technically, it’s true because it supports Persian-specific characters and has correct features.fea, but it’s just not our type!

Are there any type designers creating new types in Iran?

Titus Nemeth

Mostafa,
let me introduce myself, I'm Titus Nemeth, I've designed Nassim.

Of course I'm interested in your remarks. Nassim has been chosen by the BBC, and developed into multiple, slightly different versions to cater specifically to the different language requirements and tastes, whilst maintaining a coherent overall appearance. If you'd compare them closely you'd see the differences in details. Of course one could argue that this is impossible, but it may be good to know that this process has happened in close consultation with the various editorial teams of the BBC. I may add that the Persian team was most active in the process that led to the version that is now used on the BBC Persian site.

But what strikes me is that you state your comments as if they were absolutes. You seem to suggest that there is such a thing as 'the Persian type', and that you knew precisely what that would be. With what authority, other than your subjective judgement do you say this? Now I think if you make such a bold call, you should also back it up with something more substantial. In your view, what exactly would it be that makes a design Persian? And what makes it Arabic?

Conversely, there have been numerous Persian designers who have told me how successful the typeface specifically for Persian is. The Voice of America website, run by Persians, also chose Nassim because they thought it worked particularly well for Persian.

Also, I would be interested to know more about your references about pirated copies, would you be able to point any of those out to me?

Deleted Account

When I was young, one could spin me around, put me on a plane, fly me to anywhere in Europe, and I could tell you where I was from the fonts. France, England, Germany and Italy, they all used local fonts. That's all over.

I also heard an interesting story from A. Frutiger, about being commissioned to design an Arabic typewriter face in the 1970s. He studied the types in use from Indonesia to Morocco, settled on a design that was both stylistically and geographically centered, and it sold well but only in Lebanon. That's probably all over too.

Ray Larabie

In Japan, often the Latin alphabet is included with a font that also includes kanji characters. Those alphabets tend to be fairly plain and have truncated descenders. It's common to see a lowercase g with appears to have been crushed. If you played Japanese videogames, you've seen how they don't really have high regard for descenders.

The designs are usually sort-of-Helvetica, sort-of-Eurostile, sort-of-Garamond and a few others. Slabs are quite rare. Because those fonts include some very dense characters, heavy or black alphabets are rarely seen.
Kanji with high stroke counts

Font file sizes are huge and web, embedding is impractical. I can't recall ever seeing embedded fonts on a Japanese web site.

In Japan, design studios tend to purchase large libraries of fonts. Buying individual fonts for a project isn't really a big thing here hence there's no equivalent to MyFonts etc. It's extremely rare to see a font that's been made in the last 15 years unless it's a free one.

In custom lettering, the stark, 70's industrial look (like Handel Gothic) never goes out of style. Designers never stopped making techno-style logos based on variations of Stop. Lots of gapped P and R. Dumpy, design-by-committee logos that would be too corny/dated for the West are apparently just fine here. For example, look at any Toyota car.

Titus Nemeth

For completeness' sake, I thought that this article might be interesting for people who appreciate a second opinion / perspective. The creative director of the Persian VOA site is thus quoted:

"The new Persian VOA site (as shown in the graphic above) “was extremely well received and many users commented on how much better the site looks and how much more readable the text appears; there are no spacing, no kerning, and no proportion flaws,” added Bahmani. Fuchs acknowledged that no matter how old a browser is, the user will still have an adequate experience. Although the @font-face attribute will likely be a standard on all web browsers in the future."

Mostafa Hajizadeh

Titus, I’m really sorry that I’ve upset you. I didn’t mean any offense. I’m not saying anything bad about Nassim. Nassim is a beautiful typeface that works well in a lot of situations. I can also agree with the quotes about Nassim making websites more readable and enjoyable, compared to what they were before with default system fonts.

But I’m talking about different tastes in different places. The whole thread is about that. Saying a type doesn’t match a specific taste isn’t necessarily a bad thing. And you’re right that this topic is not clearly defined. That’s why I came here to talk about it with others. I’m trying to put my finger on the characteristics that make one feel a type looks more Arabic or more Persian. I’ve come to some ideas, but I’m still looking at these types and thinking. For example, look at the front page and some Arabic newspapers and compare them with some Persian ones. Look at the color of type, contrast and how it changes, and which types are closer to geometric shapes. It shouldn’t be very hard to see there is a difference. I’m just trying to learn more about it and make it less subjective.

It’s very interesting you mention having worked on different versions for different languages. It’s the first time I hear an Arabic type (or any time, for that matter) has been changed a little to produce different versions for different languages. Your process and experience should be very interesting in case you can share more about it.

About the pirated copies, I’m just seeing a lot of websites using Nassim, but don’t know where they get it from. I did a little search for you on Google and on GitHub (because I had seen something about it somewhere). In case you need any help about looking up into these Persian websites or writing a Persian notice or something similar, I’d be happy to help you against this.

Mostafa Hajizadeh

Are there any type designers creating new types in Iran?

That’s exactly the problem: not much. We have about a dozen typefaces here in Iran. Most of these were designed in the 70s, thanks to international companies trying to make their new printing technologies populars. These companies already had some Arabic typefaces, but they also helped some designers to go to Europe and learn about type design and design some new ones. Unfortunately, this is not well-documented, so I’m not sure what was designed where and by whom.

After that, we also had a few new ones in the 90s when digital publishing was coming along. This time, Iranian software companies were doing it. They became interested in new typefaces when they digitalized all the old ones.

We did have some new types after that once in a while, but that’s not very much. I guess that’s why people are always looking for anything new. I hope they’d still be when I finish my first type!

I’m surprised that Japan doesn’t have an active type design industry neither.

Nick’s comment is very exciting. It’s wonderful to think that even one type foundry can make such a change, even though it would be very hard.

Nick Shinn

Jean-François Porchez was instrumental in putting French (digital) typography on the map. As a young type designer in the early days of digital graphics, he was upset that major French institutions and corporations were using foreign fonts, and he addressed the issue in many ways, beyond just promoting his own typefaces. Since then, digital foundries have emerged in many countries, allowing typographers to use contemporary, locally-made type designs.

But as David notes, who gets popular where is a funny business, and as James notes, it’s important to market and promote to a specific language/country if you want to compete with the multi-nationals. Or, like Rosetta, target multi-national clients.

Max Phillips

France, England, Germany and Italy, they all used local fonts. That's all over.

Are you sure it's all over, David? When I'm in London, I'm gobsmacked by the fidelity to Gill, Baskerville, Times, Plantin, Joanna, and maybe some Bliss and Enigma to shake it up a little.

Mostafa Hajizadeh

BTW, does anybody know about the Arabic typewriter face Frutiger designed in the 70s? What was it’s name? Is it still available?

Titus Nemeth

Mostafa, you did not upset me. And thanks for your second, more measured comment. But the question is not whether Nassim is nice or not, and the article I pointed out to you is not as general as you make it sound: it's Persian native readers saying that Nassim works well for Persian. Also, I have never doubted what you said, I am acutely aware of the stylistic differences between Persian and Arabic tastes, indeed, I have been trying to pin-point them myself in my research and work. What I am missing from your reply is an answer - and as you say, you don't have it (yet).

You write: 'I’m just trying to learn more about it and make it less subjective.'

I'd then suggest to be a little more careful in making statements that could be read as definitive, established facts. So far, you have made a subjective, personal judgement, which is not supported by a very elaborate argument. What's more, it is contradicted by others. However, if I wouldn't have commented here, anybody reading this thread could have thought your view is fact.

Anyway, I'll be happy to share some more details about the BBC fonts and Nassim versions here, it'll just have to wait for a few more days as I'm currently out of office, teaching at the ESAD Amiens.

Thanks also for the search results you posted. Some of them appear indeed pirated (filenames still including the BBC prefix), others might be legit, Rosetta might check.

Dave Crossland

@James Puckett

Are there any type designers creating new types in Iran?

The lack of Iranian type designers might be related to the US trade restrictions; I know of one US foundry who looked into doing business with an Iranian type designer and found they weren't allowed.

@Ray Larabie

Font file sizes are huge and web, embedding is impractical. I can't recall ever seeing embedded fonts on a Japanese web site.

Because there's more bandwidth in Japan, the larger filesize isn't actually a problem in Japan http://decomoji.jp is a Japanese web font service around since 2010

Mostafa Hajizadeh

Dave, having international companies as clients can help people to be more serious about type design as a profession, but that shouldn’t be the main reason for the current situation, IMO. There are a lot of publications, professional websites, advertising and design agencies, etc. that can feed a type design industry from inside Iran.

Dave Crossland

True

James Puckett

What is the state of graphic design education within Iran? Is it developed enough to create typographers who can move into type design independently and autodidactically?

Mostafa Hajizadeh

They even have type design courses for graphic design students, but nothing serious comes out of it. Not sure why.

I’m not very informed about what happens in universities, but from what I’ve seen they only focus on type design on paper with hand and in a few occasions that I’ve been there and talked with people very few (among both teachers and students) had any idea what font files actually are and how they are built. The main assumption is that there are “artists” who design the letters, and “programmers” in software companies who can deal with the magic art of making fonts out of drawings!

But anyways, graphic design in Iran has developed through decades and I can say that it‘s rich and in good shape. There are a lot of talented people in the graphic design job here. So I guess I can answer your question with a “yes.”

Deleted Account

That is great to hear. I would not say any more than 2-3% of US teachers or students have any idea what font files are or how they are built either, so Iranian schools are not far behind there. Are there many Macs in Iran?

Mostafa Hajizadeh

Strange. I thought people should be more informed about related technology when they are drawing type. Apparently they shouldn’t!

Macs (and Apple products generally) are very popular. But a problem is poor support for right-to-left and Arabic shaping in design applications, so designers have to buy and use add-ons that fix this for, say, Adobe products and these add-ons are better available for Windows. I’m not very updated about this. Maybe the latest versions of design apps don’t have this problem.

James Puckett

I thought people should be more informed about related technology when they are drawing type.

Designers in the US are not especially computer literate. So in American schools type design is often viewed as magic practiced by hermits in ivory towers.

Is Indesign CS6 available in Iran? Or do sanctions block Adobe from selling there?

Mostafa Hajizadeh

Not directly. Unfortunately, pirating is very common. I guess mostly because it’s not easy to obtain things legally. InDesign, for example, can’t be purchased directly. Some shops resell these software licenses, but few people buy from them. Again, as I said, I’m not very updated about these things. I, for myself, avoid pirating and don’t have CS.

Also, I’m not sure if this is because of sanctions or not. Usually companies prefer to stay on the safe side and avoid doing any business with Iranians, even though sanctions don’t go that far.