Lithuanian I/i with ogonek in serif typeface

Uwe Waldmann

We know that in Navajo, the ogonek should be centered, whereas in Polish (Ą, Ę, ą, ę) and Lithuanian (Ą, Ę, Į, Ų, ą, ę, į, ų), it should be attached to the rightmost part of the letter (except for Ų, where it's centered if the U doesn't have a downward stroke at the right side).

What does that mean for Lithuanian "Į" and "į"? If there is neither a serif nor a curved terminal at the bottom, then there is only one choice: attach the ogonek to the stem. If there is a curved terminal, the ogonek gets attached to the terminal. But what happens if there is a serif at the bottom, and in particular, if the serif is as large as in, say, Courier? Do Lithuanians attach the ogonek to the stem in this case, or is the serif considered as an integral part of the letter, so that the ogonek gets attached to the right end of the serif instead?

John Hudson

The general approach for all European use of the ogonek is to attach in such a way that the hook sits below the right side of the letter but does not extend beyond it. The easiest way to achieve good results is to optically align the bottom of the hook with the right edge of the letter. This approach can be applied regardless of the width or weight of the letter.
In this design, I've applied the same method to the Ą. In some others I have opted for the approach that replaces the inner serif.

Vasil Stanev

Always when asking such questions, think first what  the natural way for the hand to write it out is. Search for examples on the web for Lithianian handwriting, ask Lithianians on Quora or other social networks.

I always center the origin on the stem on the I,i, because it would float otherwise in a sans.

Piotr Grochowski

"But what happens if there is a serif at the bottom, and in particular, if the serif is as large as in, say, Courier?"

In this case the serif ceases to function as a serif (especially in sans-serif fonts) and makes the letter become a different fundamental letterform, like a vs ɑ or g vs ɡ. It is a solid horizontal stem, and the ogonek anchors to it.

Piotr Grochowski

I realized that a serif typeface is right in the title.

Adam Jagosz

The last example looks a bit inconsistent: the ogonek is barely aligned with the right edge of /I /i. While aesthetically it doesn't look bad, it is a bit mechanical and reminds of the Cyrillic descender (maybe that's desired in Lithuanian?). It's definitely a cleaner solution than attaching to the stem, but /A /a /u also have serifs/terminals and the ogonek is not attached to them. If /A /a /u are this visually busy, simplifying /I /i seems like wasted effort.

Any native input?

Igor Freiberger

My approach is based on Adam Twardoch's instructions for Polish and additional research on other languages. Image includes alternates:

Vasil Stanev

I find this to be an excellent selection, Igor! Bra-vo from me!

Adam Jagosz

Igor, I think the Navajo Ę is off-center (leans to the left) and I still think /Iogonek could use either central attachment (with a more vertical link) or a wider link (for visual centering below the stem) for Navajo.

I think the join in centered ą could be lighter.

Denis Moyogo Jacquerye

We know that in Navajo, the ogonek should be centered

We don't https://github.com/adobe-fonts/source-sans/issues/75#issuecomment-77129302

While several Navajo works have centered ogoneks plenty also have right ogoneks including high quality typography works.

Christian Thalmann

I believe central attachment would be expected in Ii, and Yy looks like it has too much going on there. (Personal uninformed opinion)

Denis Moyogo Jacquerye

While several Navajo works have centered ogoneks plenty also have right ogoneks including high quality typography works.

On further inspection, the high quality typography works using right ogoneks more than centered ogoneks seem to be the more dated ones. The more recent Navajo works use centered ogoneks.

Vasil Stanev

It seems there isn't a globally agreed-upon graphic decision of how to draw the ogoneks. Even if there were for some cases, there isn't for all cases everywhere.
The logical decision for type designers, then, would be to include BOTH a version with a right and centered ogoneks, one of them being the main one used in the font, and the other one - accessible as an alternative feature. In this way, no corners are cut, and nobody has cause to complain. 
Do you agree?

Denis Moyogo Jacquerye

Do you agree?

Yes, having options is good, particulary since some users feel strongly about the position of the ogonek in Navajo, centered ogoneks should be available through the locl feature and/or a cvXX feature or a ssXX feature, and of course the aalt feature.

To somewhat go back to the original topic. There are other historical variants of the ogonek that have been used in Lithuanian or even in Polish, which may be useful in some corner case contexts. One of these forms was a small oblique stroke at the bottom right of the letters a, e, u but through the center of the i. It was also sometimes a short horizontal stroke on i.

See for example this Blackletter sample with a mix of the current ogonek on e, the oblique stroke ogonek on u and the horizontal stroke on u.

The Palemonas philological font has some PUA characters for these, for example:

Vasil Stanev

Denis Moyogo Jacquerye said:

To somewhat go back to the original topic. There are other historical variants of the ogonek that have been used in Lithuanian or even in Polish, which may be useful in some corner case contexts. One of these forms was a small oblique stroke at the bottom right of the letters a, e, u but through the center of the i. It was also sometimes a short horizontal stroke on i.

Then these too should be included, as a feature in historical reviavals and alternative forms in  fonts. But I have the feeling that this is elevating a simple mark to the status of norm. Most user of alphabets with diacritics don't seem to actually be that sure what the shape of the diacritic is - what's more important is that thereb is something to distinguish the letter with the mark. It could be a simple dot or short stroke, as in your case.