aogonek with a steep ogonek

Rainer Erich Scheichelbauer

I'm aware of Adam Twardoch’s ogonek instructions. One question remains though: where do you attach a steep ogonek on a lowercase a without a spur? On the inside or the outside of the stroke?

Alex Kaczun

Your 5-sample weight progression on "aogonek" looks okay here. And, as per Twadock's ogonek instructions shouldn't look as an accent stuck on the bottom, but more organic and part of the stem. In my opinion, I would go a bit wider on the ogonek and define the overall shape better. upper part looks stiff and tapers down much too quickly. In the heavier weight(s) you could even work the ogonek so that it appears to begin from the stroke itself better. Adjust the ogonek shape, as needed, so that it looks like a natural part of the glyph.

Jeff Kellem

I'd been going through a similar set of research and was still planning to go back to it before release. In my original sans-serif Aogonek, I preferred the look of placement to the left side of the right stem. There does seem to be a general consensus to making the ogonek seem like it's part of the glyph.

There's some good discussion in this typophile thread:
http://typophile.com/node/39060
with examples from Adam Twardoch on what he'd done. He also mentions that when the design is more mechanical that one can get away with having it look like the ogonek is assembled instead of growing out of the glyph.

Nick Shinn

IMO one should consider the problem combinations—e.g. when it’s followed by a comma or j—rather than as an isolated glyph.

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Alex Kaczun

Nick, good point. But, if the ogonek is designed properly, and to the left of right side of a stem, there should be adequate clearance. Especially if font is fit correctly. I think most fonts are fit too tightly, as of late. But, then there is kerning to take care of the exceptions.

James, right you are, ever possible ogonek design is out there, readers adjust, but I think Twardock's instructions helpful. My opinion, it should just look aesthetically right. We all know when it does not.

John Hudson

I agree with Alex that the ogonek appears a bit too narrow.

My own preference is to link the top of the ogonek to the right side of the stem in this kind of situation, and then to have the bottom terminal also align optically with the right side of the stem. This creates stability and also ensures minimal spacing problems with following descenders. Although as Nick notes the j can always cause an issue (apparently not found in Polish, but definitely in Lithuanian).

Alex Kaczun

Yea, there is always that "aogonek-j" combination. Sometimes if the kerning doesn't do the job... make a ligature for a specific need. There is always a way around the problem.

Nick Shinn

Before passing judgement on the ogonek in isolation, shouldn’t one consider the kreska?

Jeff Kellem

And some native tribes in North America seem to center the ogonek. Here's an example from the dictionary of a small tribe in Western Canada:
http://www.tlicho.ca/sites/tlicho/files/DogribPrimaryDictionary.pdf
If that sample is representative for that tribe, the ogonek marks are even separate from the letter, in this example.

Alex Kaczun

I once went out with a Polish girl named Kreska... Haha

Nick. I never heard of this accent name—thanks for sharing.

I usually design my acute a little more upright, as in the kreska example anyway—so I guess I'm killing 2 birds with 1 stone.

Jeff Kellem

I was talking with a Polish lady the other day about the kreska while showing some glyphs in a current project. She noted that when handwriting, the kreska also tends to be a tall mark, a long line (probably similar to the handwriting at the bottom of Adam Twardoch's Polish Diacritics page). She also noted that the shorter versions typically used in typefaces still looked okay to her eyes, though also agreed on the more vertical version.

Alex Kaczun

So, for illustrative purposes, I guess this would be the perfect...

Kreskaogonek?

Alex Kaczun

Can't get my "image.png" to show up. Why?

Craig Eliason

You have to host images offsite on this forum.

Alex Kaczun

Kreskaogonek

https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B4SbzHMD8DwITWZSMVFVblpDSFU/edit?usp=sharing

Alex Kaczun

Just a questions for future posts:

How does one get an image to appear in a forum post, instead of providing external offsite link? Like Rainer posted at top of this post.

Mark Simonson

That is the only way. If you click on the picture icon, it will ask for a link to an image stored somewhere on the web. The link you used above was not to an image, but a page displaying an image.

Alex Kaczun

Thanks Mark, now I got it!

Rainer Erich Scheichelbauer

Thank you guys for the commentary!