Condensed black display all-caps face (with unicase alternates): Radiator

Christian Thalmann

Some more suggestions: A cheatless /g, a doubly-rounded /W and an /a with sharpened interior corner:

Adam Jagosz

Any of these? The right one is rather a botchery. But maybe the left one? The cheat is slightly alleviated.

Christian Thalmann

I love the right /B of BRIAN, it feels more natural in the system than the round bifurcation. And it reminds me of Octant!  

I also liked the /F that you found weird, but maybe I just have a weird taste.  Perhaps you could bundle that /F and that /B in a stylistic set...

The LIBERTY sample from the previous page shows that the /i does not work well next to a top-level gap. Perhaps this would be an opportunity for a /L_i ligature...? Just join them at the second-from-top level...

Christian Thalmann

Or how about something like this for /C?

Adam Jagosz

Thanks for practically drawing this face with me, man.
How about that last one? I think your original suggestion leaves a too evident hole.

Adam Jagosz

This is but a /C_K ligature!

Adam Jagosz

How about that /F?

This would bring the C back the unwritten rule (partially) , though this might be moving dangerously near the /G territory. 'cause' or 'gause'?

How about a double struck /L, but rounded from top to resemble script L?


By a cascading /M, did you mean this?

Christian Thalmann

The fourth CHEATS & TRICKS /C works quite well, even if it is a bit dark. For my hand-drawn suggestion, maybe the kissing bends should be angular on the outside and round on the inside... but I don‘t have high hopes there. 

The cascading /M is exactly what I meant, but it doesn‘t work as well as the others... and the new /L doesn‘t work for me. And the last one says BAMUET. 

Do tell if I‘m spamming you!

Adam Jagosz

Our spams go well together, methinks. In the end, they are the discussion. Do tell me if I hem you in too much. Luckily I gave you a break for a minute now because I ran out of internets in my room Thank you so much for your input this far and I'm hoping for more!

Ligatures are the way to go! Maybe not all in one word.

Adam Jagosz

How about alternate /R/K to go with that B and C?

And here's some of the extremes


And a refreshed pdf with all the crazy ideas grouped into sets. (The umlaut should probably become circular/square instead of this leaf design).

How about the top L instead of the bottom?


That E_R probably doesn't work half as well as L_I and T_T. Will make it dlig if it survives.

Christian Thalmann

Those matching /C/K are pretty difficult to read, especially the /C (what was I thinking?). Could still be of interest if someone wanted to set a word out of vertically symmetric letters only for some reason, but not for the main cut, I presume. Please don't call them «Christian Style»...

Yes, that hard corner in /L makes a big difference!

The thin /i does feel a bit immaterial next to all those heavyweights. Maybe a two-column approach would work better? Either a 2x1 rectangle or a 2x2 square as the tittle...

I'm still amazed that that /A in ISLAND actually works. I think it does because the white space inside it looks like an /a, and the overall shape is compatible with /A.

Adam Jagosz

I guess the left ones works? Look like from a console font. The last one might work but only for Indian food I think the plain simple one works word-initially better than the plain dotted one.
The colon and semicolon should have the top element higher up?

Christian Thalmann

Just looked at the PDF. Love the /Z! The /X is also nice, albeit cheaty... would be really difficult to pull it off without cheating and without turning it into a swastika, though. The /Q is also rather cheaty.

When reading the sample texts, I stumbled over the /J in JACKDAW again; it scans as DACKDAW for me. Maybe these would work better?

BTW, I'm getting the impression that my suggestions, especially to avoid cheats, tend to make the letters more static and less flowery/trippy (as with the /O). That's sad! While I think there's merit in a de-cheated version of this typeface, it would also be great to have a version that embraces that trippiness and throws unwritten rules into the wind.

Adam Jagosz

That would be the Cheat style in the pdf, page six I'm glad to hear you want to embrace it "Flowery" was the word I was missing when I wanted to defend the O. But I agree the full metal jacket version is very appropriate, and let's carry over the best in both to the rest of the font(s).

I would change the Q to the once proposed C but I would read is as C anyway. I think X and Q are such exotic letters in most languages, they deserve to remain cheaty quirks. (That is also true of z and k in some fonts, which I dislike.)

Adam Jagosz

Other variants that could embrace things would be embracing the light. The first /J you propose is great for the main cut, but not the second. That would go well though with that /C you suggested (I think it changed the game, actually, with only my minor darkening correction). I'm still thinking of the old C but I somehow can't love it again. It's like an old relationship you never really felt great in but you miss the safety.

Christian Thalmann

Here's how the /i could work in FMJ mode... maybe even expand the tittle into a full box, but I suspect it's better if the tittle remains minimal.

In flower power mode, maybe the box should be opened and joined with the tittle in a /Z-shape. I suspect it won't be mistaken for /Z if it's so narrow and the bend happens at the very top.

EDIT: Never mind, that doesn't work in the least.

I would keep the logic of the letter construction for the punctuation as far as possible, i.e., use boxes rather than circles or leaves, and keep the comma resting on the baseline. But maybe that's just my full metal heart talking. The exclamation mark should probably also gain some heft.

Adam Jagosz

Seems to be working well. I only don't like the sight of "LJ", but otherwise they coexist well.

What I meant by light is this:

More light squares would be needed to create a random pixel spray effect.
Similarly the cascade /m, lowercasey /t/h, could be used as a start to make a skyscraper landscape effect.

Christian Thalmann

Last one before bedtime! Two-storey tittle after all...?

I see what you mean with the light mode — could be worth a try. Though I think the more solid /J would still work pretty well in the dark design, it's no worse offender than /L.

I read «5th» as «STH». Maybe raise the central horizontal by at least one level and make the top serif angular.

Also, the /one in your PDF is very hard to read. I might suggest a minimalist approach without serifs, just a pillar with a curved top left (perhaps two columns wide?).

Adam Jagosz

I think I will be designing superscript and subscript. I already did for the numbers, but do you do that for letters? I guess hardly anyone does it for more than a-z plus some punctuation — just what's in Unicode? And I guess even the encoded glyphs should be duplicated as x.sups when put into the feature, so that they will display correctly in Glyphs palette?


I understand the top version is supposed to work as script /i with the stress on solid and not the counter? The bottom convinces me more at first sight but might seem illogical at second thought when you realize it is actually a /J that is a really ugly /J.

Christian Thalmann

How about something like this for a cheatless /X?

Definitely bedtime now!

Adam Jagosz

The top one looks like a /two or /Z, but how about the bottom one? Only a slightly worse offender than /L and /J, and a lesser one than /F.

Or this, koppa style.

I think this one definitely fits in.

Christian Thalmann

The /five is now very legible, the /four too.  The /one isn‘t bad, but probably wouldn‘t click without the context. Perhaps if it cut were on the right side just below the top row, or on the left just above the base row?

The top /Q works just fine for me and fits with the other spirally designs. The bottom one is cheating with that round terminal; maybe the left bottom could rest on the baseline and meet the core in a T-junction?

Yep, that /X is a keeper.

Not so fond of the heavy-dotted /i; the tittle is not heavy enough to stand out. Maybe if the counter were larger? Your stroke direction makes more sense, at any rate. 

Craig Eliason

This is such an exciting project--a simple system that opens up so many design possibilities for each letter, and the accompanying brinksmanship with making each decipherable. 

Some of it brings to mind pre-Columbian art (maybe "MEXICO" in that last sample influenced that impression). 

I do think that ligatures are probably a step too far. Having clear separation between each letter is a welcome starting point for decoding.

Adam Jagosz

Craig Eliason said:

so many design possibilities for each letter

@Craig Eliason I agree there are many! Currently I have 69 slots filled with outcasts from the A-Z a-z slots, waiting for their time. Thanks for the kind words! I had the word "tribal" in mind when looking at some letters and words. The separated variants of /B/K/R remind me of lettering in Greek monasteries, the beta and kappa have separated bowls/arm and leg in this kind of script very often.

The ligatures should be used sparingly, definitely that bunch of E_R's in the pdf was far-fetched. I do think L_I works nicely, though, as does T_T. I don't see too many possibilities for any other developments in this area. E_R was done after I did L_I T_T and needed to finish the word

And come to think of it, this project was started over two years ago and already went (maybe even twice) to my garbage folder.

It wouldn't be possible to resume this exploration without you, Christian! This went so far in such a short time.

I nudged the counter of /I. How about an almost full-metal jacket /Q? I think it's simple and clean.



Context... reminds me of Javascript debugging hell The bottom line is my trial of showing a null context. Btw: should /zero be differentiated from /O? Maybe it should take the form of /Oslash?

Adam Jagosz

Jasper de Waard said:

The /ae feels oddly normal in this context, though it does follow all the rules of this typeface.

The normalcy of the original /ae (top row) is rooted in its cheaty, as we now know, bifurcation. What do you think of the version without cheats?
Anyway, we could go for an actual 5-level wide ligature, which seems somehow more proportional to the whole.

Adam Jagosz

Dave Rowland said:

Have you tried a foot serif on the T? And I would try the counters with square endcaps instead of circular.

Thank you for these suggestions, they are much appreciated!

Christian Thalmann

I'm still not sure those giant tittles work. I'd try a two-column approach with a single-layer tittle and as little interior structure as possible.

That /Q seems like a missed opportunity... join the core to the right-hand stem at the bottom and make it round on the right side so as to emphasize the /O-like nature and set off the tail more.

Do you really need that cheaty incision in the bottom of /U...?

The bottom right /AE works best for me. I might make the top right and bottom right corners sharp to echo the /E with those features (which I firmly believe should be the default /E).

The step-topped /one is not very legible to me. I suspect the previous attempt could be made to work well by just welding shut the seam (making it full-metal).

Yes, an /Oslash-like /zero seems like a good idea.

Adam Jagosz

How about that?

It's an uc /Q with a lc /q inside. Deal-maker.

Adam Jagosz

Still a /C for me.

Maybe more like this (the bottom one maybe):

Adam Jagosz

/U should work rather well without the incision. Not so sure about the /V.

Maybe more like this?


I don't really like this, but why not?


Kinda works. But as you said, this is less and less flowery. Need to come up with another /one for the trippy cut.