Ukrainian її — preferred presentation?

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Comments

  • Christian Thalmann
    Christian Thalmann Posts: 1,969
    edited April 2022
    Excellent! So would it be preferable to use the same symmetric ligature for both yiyi and iyi?
    I suppose I could offer asymmetric ligatures as a stylistic set to be on the safe side.
  • Andriy Konstantynov
    Andriy Konstantynov Posts: 7
    No, I’d still make a symmetric ligature for її, and an asymmetric one for ії (if it’s needed at all, usually the default spacing is good by itself).
  • Christian Thalmann
    Christian Thalmann Posts: 1,969
    Ok, I made three-dot /yi_yi/ ligatures for lc, uc and smcp.
    Last question: Does /yi.sc/ require a tittle? I guess not?
  • Andriy Konstantynov
    Andriy Konstantynov Posts: 7
    yi.sc does (it’s considered a separate letter). i_cyr.sc doesn’t.
  • Christian Thalmann
    Christian Thalmann Posts: 1,969
    Yes, I meant that, sorry for the mix-up.
  • John Savard
    John Savard Posts: 1,124
    Christian Thalmann said:
    («We're used to fonts looking shitty» is not an acceptable solution IMHO!)
    Although I generally would tend to agree with that sentiment, in the sense that I am supportive of efforts to give every language, however humble, the best possible quality of font support...
    you have actually raised, in this context, a very important question.
    Readability and legibility, after all, are based on what readers are used to.
    So if a solution to the double i-with-diaresis problem that looks pretty is totally unlike anything readers have ever encountered, it can't help but cause confusion.
    It may be that type designers do luck out in the case of Ukrainian, due to the nonexistence of words which are only distinguished by which i more of the dots belong to. But something like that isn't guaranteed to happen in the next language in which type designers may encounter similar issues.
    Therefore, I think it is very reasonable to advise... a bit of restraint with respect to, shall we say, enthusiasm about the æsthetic aspect of type.

  • Christian Thalmann
    Christian Thalmann Posts: 1,969
    Fair point, John, but when a native type designer recommends me to choose the æsthetic solution, that's certainly good enough for me. :smile:
  • John Savard
    John Savard Posts: 1,124
    Christian Thalmann said:
    Fair point, John, but when a native type designer recommends me to choose the æsthetic solution, that's certainly good enough for me.

    It is true that this might be the right solution for Ukrainian.
    However, while he is a native speaker of a language written with the Cyrillic alphabet, it is a bit of an exaggeration to say that he is a native speaker of Ukrainian, as I see from his bio, even though he lives and works in Kyiv today. Before that, for a while, he lived in Talinn, Estonia, but that was not his birthplace.
    The fact that his surname ends in -ov was the tipoff.
  • Olexa Volochay
    Olexa Volochay Posts: 50
    John Savard said:
    However, while he is a native speaker of a language written with the Cyrillic alphabet, it is a bit of an exaggeration to say that he is a native speaker of Ukrainian, as I see from his bio, even though he lives and works in Kyiv today. Before that, for a while, he lived in Talinn, Estonia, but that was not his birthplace.
    The fact that his surname ends in -ov was the tipoff.
    Sorry, you're looking in the wrong place :-) We in Ukraine have both -steins, and even Rabinovichs. This does not stop them from being native speakers.

    Andriy is one of the most popular Ukrainian type designers today. Therefore, it is not only possible, but also necessary, to listen to his advice on Ukrainian letters.

    My personal opinion. For small sizes, it is worth using a ligature -її- with three dots, for large ones it is more logical to use a ligature with a decrease in the distance between the dots, while maintaining the reading of of both letters -ї-.







  • John Savard
    John Savard Posts: 1,124
    Olexa Volochay said:
    Sorry, you're looking in the wrong place :-) We in Ukraine have both -steins, and even Rabinovichs. This does not stop them from being native speakers.

    This is certainly true. In my country, we have people with all kinds of names who are still native speakers of English.
    But as I noted, I went to his web site, where his birthplace was noted. (Shall I get into the etymology of the word "native", from Latin?)

    What I was not trying to say was in any way that his ethnic ancestry disqualifies him from being a decent human being. After all, if the Russian people were baby-eating monsters, Vladimir Putin would not have to go to the trouble of lying to them, and saying that he is only engaged in a "special military operation" in Ukraine; they would heartily approve of the carnage and destruction in Ukraine - which, instead, he says is a Western lie.

  • Andriy Konstantynov
    Andriy Konstantynov Posts: 7
    But as I noted, I went to his web site, where his birthplace was noted. (Shall I get into the etymology of the word "native", from Latin?)
    I hate to go personal, but it seems like I have to (why?). My father is ethnically Russian, hence the surname, my mother is Ukrainian. Yes, I happened to be born in the USSR on the territory of modern Russia, but I never lived there (as you mentioned, I had lived in Tallinn instead).

    I moved to Ukraine (still being a part of the USSR) at the age of 9, and I've been a proud Ukrainian citizen ever since.

    Yes, I leant Ukrainian in a non-native manner, but is 30+ years of exposure and active speaking not enough to be considered native as a type designer? Especially when we are speaking about the relatively new trends like digital ligatures.

    Also, I would like to mention that in the current situation, I find your assumptions and my necessity to explain myself quite offensive.

    My personal opinion. For small sizes, it is worth using a ligature -її- with three dots, for large ones it is more logical to use a ligature with a decrease in the distance between the dots, while maintaining the reading of of both letters -ї-.

    Exactly, I totally agree.
  • John Savard
    John Savard Posts: 1,124
    Andriy Konstantynov said:
    Also, I would like to mention that in the current situation, I find your assumptions and my necessity to explain myself quite offensive.

    My apologies.
    I misunderstood what was in your biography on your website, and assumed that you moved to Talinn yourself as an adult.
    My intent was simply to note that Christian Thalmann had made an error, having missed something that was obvious to me, not to create questions about your loyalty and so on.
  • Christian Thalmann
    Christian Thalmann Posts: 1,969
    My intent was simply to note that Christian Thalmann had made an error,
    Well thank gods that the record was set straight on that matter, then!
    My personal opinion. For small sizes, it is worth using a ligature -її- with three dots, for large ones it is more logical to use a ligature with a decrease in the distance between the dots, while maintaining the reading of of both letters -ї-.
    I still can't figure out how to make four dots fit onto the two regularly-spaced stems without making them comically tiny... but then, Ysabeau is meant as a reading typeface, so I can safely stick with the ligature. :grimace:

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