price quotation for a new custom font
Yomar Augusto
Posts: 18
I'm starting a new price quotation for a new custom font for a BIG client, and I need some help, the work consist in a font with 3 weights with a basic character set (256glyphs) and I always have problems to find the right quotation. After some research decided to charge 21k (euro) for the project - 7k per weight but the client wants to own the font, so decided to add 150% plus in the price, so + 63K, bringing in a total of 84k for the project. I'm looking for some opinions about my decision, if I'm doing right proceeding like this? Thanks a lot.
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The user and all related content has been deleted.2
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Sounds good to me.0
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The user and all related content has been deleted.1
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thanks a lot James! thank you. Thank you Jackson also0
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Hey Yomar, curious to know how the client took it?
Also I'm confused about the calculation. Wouldn't 21k + 150% = 52.5k? (21 + 21*1.5) or is my maths wrong...0 -
Hey Yomar, curious to know how the client took it?
Also I'm confused about the calculation. Wouldn't 21k + 150% = 52.5k? (21 + 21*1.5) or is my maths wrong...0 -
hey Jay, nothing really happened, the possible client didn't want to push forward, sorry about my late reaction. BEst Yomar0
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Hi, quoting for fonts is a tricky one. Increasingly, I see people who charge 7k (US$) per weight. There is no way you can make a living from that. Consider that it will take you approx 150 hours per weight, including some initial concept work, if you want to do a good job. You will find that you're working at 46US$ per hour. If you are self employed that does not pay for the bills these days.
You must also think beyond the cost of simply drawing letters in your font program. Your work goes beyond that. You must factor in font engineering and possibly hinting, particularly, if you work for a corporate client, and you must factor in potential support time that you will inevitably incur. IMO, I think that a price of around US$ 20-25k per weight is appropriate for a Western European glyph set (ANSII), giving the client three years exclusivity. If they want to own the rights, double the price.
If they think that you're too expensive and argue that they can have lots of fonts for 'free' from other sources then tell them to go to hell.
Bruno22 -
THANKS A LOT!0
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Thanks for posting hard numbers Bruno!0
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Thanks, Bruno. It's great that you share your perspective on custom font pricing. It's very helpful, indeed. I think we all struggle with that aspect.
I think your pricing structure is right on. My pricing has been somewhere in the range of 17-20K, depending on the complexity and number of glyphs. Although, I have experienced a lack of commitment from clients when going over the 20K limit.
I am curious though, in your experience, the percent of clients that opt for ownership of the fonts and are willing to pay double the price. Thanks again.1 -
I think that a price of around US$ 20-25k per weight is appropriate for a Western European glyph set (ANSII), giving the client three years exclusivity. If they want to own the rights, double the price.
On a work-for-hire project, your hypothetical type designer's billing rate would work out to US$266–333 per hour.
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Those rates aren't really out of line from my experiences with agency rates: about $150/hr for a young designer's time, $250/hr for a senior designer, and $+300/hr for a creative director's time.0
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Hello Yomar,
Your question seems to imply that you did not work for many 'BIG' customers before. My advice is to take it easy and negotiate in a relaxed manner with your client. The valuable advices by all these millionaires on this forum are priceless, but perhaps it's easier for them in their circumstances to ask for premium prices (i.e., for them these are not premium) than it's for you at the moment.
If this is a Lighthouse Customer, play it smart. Four weights are perhaps better than three. Raise your price and include Turkish, Central- and Eastern European characters. Make a separate quote for delta hinting, if applicable. If you're doing a proper job, they will remain your customer and other customers will probably follow. Success!
FEB6 -
LetterModeller, you need to change to your full name.
all these millionaires
Hah.
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I do think Bruno’s advice is great, but also unrealistic when dealing with smaller companies. A young company with decent funding may pay 30k for a custom typeface, but will rarely pay 100k or such, while that is pocketchange for a company the size of Nokia (or the World Cup, or... any other recent, big DaltonMaag client).
The only question is, can you serve that smaller customer while still making a profit? Probably yes, if you structure the deal cleverly. Most likely by not including things like manual hinting or a super extended characterset in such a price.1 -
Bruno, I wonder if you'll post hard salary numbers on http://www.daltonmaag.com/jobs/ again; you used to include figures like £26,000–£40,000
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If they think that you're too expensive and argue that they can have lots of fonts for 'free' from other sources then tell them to go to hell.
That's the best news freelance type designers have heard all year!! Happy Xmas everyone!1 -
From what I have seen, only the very high end folks are charging $20-25K USD per style. You can get some very big type designer names at $80–120K USD for a four-member fami
Back about four years ago I did some pricing and found that I could get some pretty solid work from designers I trusted who were not really super big name designers, but solid known quantities, around $5K per style, or $20K USD for a four-member family, including CE support, and buying all rights.
Now admittedly, there's been some inflation, and more importantly that was the depths of the recession, so maybe people were willing to work cheaper then than they would be now.
Certainly I am slow enough that if I was doing it I would be charging more than $5K per style, for sure.3 -
I got a quote for a 4 weight family a few years ago from an experienced designer, and it was in the range of $40k - that was a rough initial figure, we did not go ahead with it so did not get into details that may have affected the price. One thing he did mention was that his pricing was based on what he felt the font would make him retail.1
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Bruno, I wonder if you'll post hard salary numbers on http://www.daltonmaag.com/jobs/ again; you used to include figures like £26,000–£40,000
A £33k salary also lines up with a designer billing just above $200/hr at an agency.0 -
Interesting to see all the comments, and how many appear all too willing to drive pricing down. It also proves, yet again, that many designers are not that business minded. Some arguments go that only the big companies can afford the price examples I cite. That may be so but there are different solutions for the more limited budgets, such as modification of an existing font - of course with permissions and licensing in place.
As a guide I took an average of 150 hours for a Western European glyphset, per weight. I must state again, that this is for conceputalising, drawing the letters, spacing and kerning. It does not include hinting which can get rather involved. You may argue that font tools nowadays include autohint facilities. Believe me when I say that for custom fonts it's not good enough. I have worked with too many clients and know that they are more demanding that this.
When I give a figure of $46 you need to remember that this is gross. This is not money in your pocket. You have to pay tax and social security from that, anywhere between 20% to 60%, depending where you live. If you live in the low tax bracket that leaves you with around $35 in your pocket, per hour. Low tax means you pay your own health insurance, dental costs, and other bits that otherwise the state would take care of. You also need to add some money to your pension fund or other old age savings vehicle. Immediately, you can knock off another $10 an hour. You haven't even bought any of the equipment you need to make that font. And software: Adobe CS, Office and others for testing; and paper for your printer; and electricity to actually run the bloody computer. (Did you know that the UK energy companies are jacking up the prices by 3.5% fromJanaury?). And so on and on.
And finally, you need to eat. Once you take off all the expenses to just make the typeface, you will go starving, like the proverbial artist. But then again, society has always argued that the best artist is a starving artist. Well, screw that.
By all means, structure your pricing, divide it up into different bite-size chunks. It helps the client understand your billing and what you do for it. But once they tally up all the different things they need, you will still end up at the $20-25 k tag. There is no way around it if you actually want to live.
As technology moves on, we find ourselves increasingly in a situation where what people see is design, drawing, wonderful letterforms. So, the client's perception of what we do is entirely visual. The reality is that we're actually software developers and our products are software. The drawing part is the easy thing to do. It's to make the drawing work in every conceivable situation that is the hard part. And that takes skill and experience; hours, days, weeks of research. That needs to be paid for, too. I don't want to starve.
Sorry for the long post. Too many type designers delude themselves thinking that by offering their services for under $10 per weight, they do themselves a favour. All they manage to do is to devalue the product we create, and to make it harder and harder to make a living from what we love doing.
BTW, we still pay our people decent wages so they can actually live. We will never pay anyone below London Living Wages. We pay 32 days holiday, including bank (public) holidays, statutory sick benefits, 3% contribution to pension funds, and profit related bonus.
Cheers
Bruno11 -
The user and all related content has been deleted.1
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Jackson, you're probably thinking monthly. I think they're talking annual salary. £33K is $50K on the upside. That's $25/hour. x150 makes $3750. That's less than 20% of a $20K charge.
Probably an amazing dental plan, though.0 -
you will still end up at the $20-25 k tag. There is no way around it if you actually want to live.
But why should your calculation be true for any custom font, made by any designer anywhere on the world. Phrasing this in such an absolute way makes it obviously unrealistic.All they manage to do is to devalue the product we create, and to make it harder and harder to make a living from what we love doing.
I consider that a myth. For every product or service one person or company will offer, there will be someone who will offer it cheaper. I don't think that was any different even 2000 years ago. If the availability of lower offers would always devaluate products and services, every price of every product or service would be at its lowest. And each industry should create industry-wide cartel to keep prices up artificially.
I agree, it is crazy to ask for less than you actually need just to get a job. But what you need is up to any individual person or company.
But this also means it’s strange that designers ask in forums “What should I charge for …?”. No one can answer that. You need to calculate your time and costs and the offer must reflect exactly that and nothing else. If the client is not willing to pay that, then don’t take the job. In that regard I agree to Bruno.0 -
Ralf H. Seriously, change your name to the full name. Last warning.1
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Griffin. I'm just saying those are typical numbers for salary/billing at agencies. They might seem unbalanced to you they aren't that ridiculous when you consider overhead and the other employees who aren't directly billable.0
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Jackson, I just noted that the £33K you thought was monthly is actually annual — which in this case means nowhere near the $200/hour you deduce by comparison. I never said anything about what was balanced and what wasn't. I understand top-heavy/bottom-light industrial/corporate hierarchies, and they are what they are - though people always have other options if they want them.0
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I'm not deducing anything, those numbers come from my actual experiences working with real design agencies.
I don't know where you're pulling this "the £33K you thought was monthly is actually annual" shit from but come on.0 -
No need to get snarky. You did write "A £33k salary also lines up with a designer billing just above $200/hr," didn't you?0
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