Cormorant Cyrillic Review

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Alexei Vanyashin

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Sep 2, 2016, 3:43:57 PM9/2/16
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Hi Christian,

Here is a detailed review touching the stylistical questions I mentioned earlier.

The main question is: do you want the Cyrillic to match the Historical feel of Garamond, or are you doing just a contemporary inspired-by font.
I would suggest reshaping ДЛ to match earlier Cyrillic forms, instead of using modern Didone-style letterforms.

The sources I am referencing in the review are BT Kis by Paratype(Janson), and Adobe Text Pro, Adobe Garamond Pro.

-a
Cormorant review.pdf

Christian Thalmann

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Sep 2, 2016, 4:29:46 PM9/2/16
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Hi Alexei,

thanks for your insights.

I'm rather surprised at the tear-shaped central descenders. Shouldn't they match the lateral descenders in Ц etc.? This seems to be the case in many other typefaces.

I am not pursuing a historically accurate revival, and I find the historically appropriate trapezoidal forms quite ungainly. I think I'm going to stick to the modern-style architecture for the base cut of Cormorant and to the triangular architecture in the Cormorant Garamond cut (= SS02), which remind me of Trajan in a pleasant way.

I rather like the flat foot of the current У, in particular because my uppercase is almost entirely devoid of ball terminals in general, and because I find the flat foot more «capital» and grounded than the ball terminal. However, I'm happy to offer a ball-terminal variant — perhaps for the default cut, since it uses more mainstream Cyrillic forms in general?

I can make the counter of Яя more open, but note that it is also almost uncomfortably small in Latin R. Small counters are a defining feature of the typeface.

I don't like the semi-serif version of Ии, and would much prefer to keep the current version, since it fits so well with the Trajan flavor of the Cormorant Garamond cut. I'm happy to remove the non-Bulgarian glyphs from the loclBGR set.

The new Ф looks good!

Cheers, Christian

Christian Thalmann

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Sep 5, 2016, 6:25:26 AM9/5/16
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Made a drop-terminal version of У and small-caps у for the default cut. The Garamond cut retains the «stainless steel murderspider» look, as orthoxerox called it.

Screen Shot 2016-09-05 at 12.22.14.png
Screen Shot 2016-09-05 at 12.22.03.png

Christian Thalmann

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Sep 12, 2016, 10:56:55 AM9/12/16
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So, Alexei, can I get away with my current design choices?

Once the Roman is finalized, I can start propagating the additions and changes to the Italic.

Alexei Vanyashin

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Sep 20, 2016, 10:24:06 AM9/20/16
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Hi Christian, 

I am sorry I was not able to get back earlier, as I my attention is split by many ongoing projects. 

I am not pursuing a historically accurate revival, and I find the historically appropriate trapezoidal forms quite ungainly. 

It is absolutely fine if you don't pursue a historical revival. The main problem as I see it is that you are mixing in Garamond, Bodoni, and Trajan. In Cyrillic you need to stick to one convention — per stylistic set in your case :)

I like how the new terminals in Уу relate to Лл.

The Лл represents a modern Didone shape, while /б is an old-fashioned Garamond. 

(Didone style is considered modern for Cyrillic, since by that time, 100 years after Peter's reform the letterforms were finally crystalised).

In this context I would expect  a /б with a more horizontally-oriented middle part in the tail. 



For a classist feel I recommend extending the terminal in У below the baseline.

Here is a sample from Trajan with an extended У.






Made a drop-terminal version of У and small-caps у for the default cut. The Garamond cut retains the «stainless steel murderspider» look, as orthoxerox called it.

This "Trajan-style" У is fine, and requires a different solution for Лл, which you provided.
I see a problem with У and у. The lowercase design needs to be adjusted as well.  


Another type of terminal in У. May be used in lowercase to match the "murderspider".







Your updated Яя looks good. 



I'm rather surprised at the tear-shaped central descenders. Shouldn't they match the lateral descenders in Ц etc.? This seems to be the case in many other typefaces.


No, as you have seem from my examples in the PDF. Since you are not going for historical details, you may leave your current solution. I reckon I have seen it in others fonts. 














Alexei Vanyashin

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Sep 20, 2016, 10:33:35 AM9/20/16
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.. continued

More stylistical and script-specific issues:

Cormorant:

з l.c.— needs a serif in the bottom, similar to э




б the middle part of the tail should be more horizontally oriented. Reference:



ДдЛЛУу  There are two main conventions. Please choose one (for a single stylistic set). Your current solutions for ЛлДд in the default set feel out of place. 


1. Garamond-style / Broad nib Cyrillic







2. Didone-style / Pointed nib Cyrillic





Once again, sorry for the late answer. Let me know if you have more questions to proceed further. 


Regards, 

-a




Christian Thalmann

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Sep 22, 2016, 6:37:48 AM9/22/16
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Hi Alexei,

It is absolutely fine if you don't pursue a historical revival. The main problem as I see it is that you are mixing in Garamond, Bodoni, and Trajan. In Cyrillic you need to stick to one convention — per stylistic set in your case :)

Well, Trajan ist not exactly traditional or conventional... couldn't Cormorant be innovative in the same way that Trajan Cyrillic is?

In any case, I'm fine with thinking of Cormorant Garamond as a Trajan/Garamond hybrid (Trajan doesn't have lowercase anyway), and going for Bodoni-style convention with default Cormorant.

 
I like how the new terminals in Уу relate to Лл.

The Лл represents a modern Didone shape, while /б is an old-fashioned Garamond. 

OK, so I can at least keep the current /б for the Garamond cut and just make a more horizontal one for the Bodoni cut? The main problem I foresee there is that my ascenders are very high, so that horizontal tail will just seem to hover far above in the clouds.
 

For a classist feel I recommend extending the terminal in У below the baseline.

Here is a sample from Trajan with an extended У.



I prefer the look of the baseline-aligned У, especially with the horizontal foot of the murderspider cut. Otherwise, it's the only capital that sticks out like that. I suppose I could offer a descending variant as a stylistic alternate.

 

This "Trajan-style" У is fine, and requires a different solution for Лл, which you provided.
I see a problem with У and у. The lowercase design needs to be adjusted as well.  



How about this?


 

 Your updated Яя looks good. 



I'm actually not sure whether I changed anything.  ;o)

Auto Generated Inline Image 1

Christian Thalmann

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Sep 22, 2016, 2:25:54 PM9/22/16
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Hi Alexei,

and here the reply to the second part.


з l.c.— needs a serif in the bottom, similar to э




б the middle part of the tail should be more horizontally oriented.


Trying... but I find it's hard to make the knee thin enough to satisfy the contrast and still leave enough of a horizontal flag in the Bold. I've solved this with a non-vertical vertical for the time being; does that work?



 

ДдЛЛУу  There are two main conventions. Please choose one (for a single stylistic set). Your current solutions for ЛлДд in the default set feel out of place.


I really don't understand this issue. As far as I can tell, I'm faithfully adhering to the architecture of the Bodoni approach with my default cut of ЛлДд (thin stem starts vertical and curves out into a ball terminal, proportions match). The only differences I see are the obvious ones due to the different stress and contrast in Cormorant. I certainly can't have hairlines everywhere like Bodoni, or super-curled terminals. I also strongly dislike the boneless diagonals of the traditional Garamond.
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Alexei Vanyashin

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Sep 22, 2016, 3:25:52 PM9/22/16
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/з is good. 



The lowercase /у does not look good. 



The proper way to design it would be to 'chop off' the drop, and make it into a straight.



The left /б is good. The Bold one is falling to the left. 




I really don't understand this issue. As far as I can tell, I'm faithfully adhering to the architecture of the Bodoni approach with my default cut of ЛлДд (thin stem starts vertical and curves out into a ball terminal, proportions match). The only differences I see are the obvious ones due to the different stress and contrast in Cormorant. I certainly can't have hairlines everywhere like Bodoni, or super-curled terminals. 


To my native eyes a mix of two different conventions looks inappropriate, and distracting. Compare the amount of white in /а and /л. It does not feel right, because it isn't backed up by tradition. The 'boneless diagonals' are called trapeziodal, and are traditional for broad-nib structure. I do advise trying out this solution. 



I also strongly dislike the boneless diagonals of the traditional Garamond.

You can't dislike them before you try them.

 


Christian Thalmann

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Sep 23, 2016, 8:27:02 AM9/23/16
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The lowercase /у does not look good.

The proper way to design it would be to 'chop off' the drop, and make it into a straight.


I have tried that, and it looks exceedingly unattractive, not to mention ill-fitting with the typeface. (I have the same feelings toward the sample image you posted for that architecture.)

I made two more alternatives; are any of those better? The one-sided serif maybe?



 

The left /б is good. The Bold one is falling to the left. 



I see what you mean. Better?


By the way, I'm currently using this form for the Bodoni cut and the original form for the Garamond cut. Is this the wrong way around? Looking at your hand-written sample images, it seems to me like the strong-backed design (as shown here) implies a broad nib. Should I switch them around?


I really don't understand this issue. As far as I can tell, I'm faithfully adhering to the architecture of the Bodoni approach with my default cut of ЛлДд (thin stem starts vertical and curves out into a ball terminal, proportions match). The only differences I see are the obvious ones due to the different stress and contrast in Cormorant. I certainly can't have hairlines everywhere like Bodoni, or super-curled terminals. 


To my native eyes a mix of two different conventions looks inappropriate, and distracting. Compare the amount of white in /а and /л. It does not feel right, because it isn't backed up by tradition. The 'boneless diagonals' are called trapeziodal, and are traditional for broad-nib structure. I do advise trying out this solution.


Based on your previous suggestions, I chose «Trajan» as the style for Cormorant Garamond and «Bodoni» for Cormorant. In that context, a Bodoni-style shape for /л seems appropriate. Are you now saying that Bodoni-style shapes were never an option because my font is humanist in nature...?

 

I also strongly dislike the boneless diagonals of the traditional Garamond.

You can't dislike them before you try them.

I can certainly dislike the samples taken from professional fonts that you're showing...
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Alexei Vanyashin

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Sep 23, 2016, 10:36:38 AM9/23/16
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The new bold /б looks good. 


I think this one looks better, but it's terminal is too large. 




This would probably work too. I need to check in text. 



Based on your previous suggestions, I chose «Trajan» as the style for Cormorant Garamond and «Bodoni» for Cormorant. In that context, a Bodoni-style shape for /л seems appropriate. Are you now saying that Bodoni-style shapes were never an option because my font is humanist in nature...?


I am already confused what you mean by Bodoni-cut, Garamond-cut, etc. I don't think you can mix Bodoni and Garamond in one style and get away with it.


To my eyes /л and /д look wrong. I am used to  seeing them much narrower with a trapezoid top.



Compare the amount of white in the counters. 



Do you think you can mix an /a from Baskerville into Jenson and make it a feature? Good luck with that....

 




Christian Thalmann

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Sep 23, 2016, 11:10:36 AM9/23/16
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This would probably work too. I need to check in text. 



I could certainly live with that solution!


 
I am already confused what you mean by Bodoni-cut, Garamond-cut, etc. I don't think you can mix Bodoni and Garamond in one style and get away with it.

I think I'm finally starting to see the problem. I was under the impression that there are a bunch of characters (e.g., ДИЛКУ) that need to be consistent in either Bodoni, Garamond, or Trajan style, whereas the rest of the characters are basically style-agnostic. Thus, I was going to make them Bodoni-like in the default «Cormorant» fonts, and Trajan-like in the «Cormorant Garamond» fonts (Cormorant + SS02). What you're saying now is that the other characters, such as /a, are in fact not style-agnostic, and if I wanted to go Bodoni-style, I'd have to remake all those characters, too. That's out of the question in my opinion (Cormorant is all about that /a!), so I guess Bodoni-style designs are out of the question in general.

I suppose the default Cormorant will have to become Garamond-style, then.

 

To my eyes /л and /д look wrong. I am used to  seeing them much narrower with a trapezoid top.



Compare the amount of white in the counters. 


Don't the counters of лд resonate with the open counter of /a, though...?  I guess if that's not what your eyes expect, it won't work. I don't think I can make the top of лд narrow enough to fit with the current /a, though, even with trapezoidal designs.

Could I salvage those лд by using the /a/e from .ss02, which have larger apertures? Or are there many more letters in the current Cormorant lowercase that would need to be changed to fit Bodoni-style лд?

Alexei Vanyashin

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Sep 23, 2016, 12:36:08 PM9/23/16
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Christian, 


I have adjusted лд to fit the current style. What are your thoughts on this?



The descenders in /ц were too heavy. This size feels more natural to me. 




Another stylistical note. I would expect lowercase жк to be drop-shaped in this scenario. They feel like small caps.


If you wish these жк may be kept in a separate stylistical set, and should be matched with л+y with "spider-terminals". 

This type of customisation is acceptable, unless you don't alter the letter-skelet. 




Example:





Could I salvage those лд by using the /a/e from .ss02, which have larger apertures? Or are there many more letters in the current Cormorant lowercase that would need to be changed to fit Bodoni-style лд?


No. I don't think the minute change is sufficient. They don't work either










Alexei Vanyashin

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Sep 23, 2016, 12:46:01 PM9/23/16
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The file with длц is here.

Christian Thalmann

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Sep 26, 2016, 10:47:57 AM9/26/16
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Hi Alexei,

thanks, your demonstration glyphs look quite convincing, especially in the first few images. In the last image, I sort of vaccilate between the third option and the first. Sometimes my eye appreciates the similarity of spacial frequencies between the narrow trapezoids and the tight counters in the vowels in the third sample, and at other times it finds the first sample more rhythmic and finds the chasm between ад in that last sample really jarring. I suppose I'll stick to it, though.

Judging from the Google Fonts usage stats, Cormorant Garamond seems much more popular on Russian sites than Cormorant, so the triangular bodies really seem to work. Maybe changing the trapezoids in the regular Cormorant will help it catch up.  :)

Descenders of ц: I guess that should be propagated to all similar descenders?

Ball terminals: I really don't like ball terminals in кж; they strike me as very Bodoni-like and pompous. I gave them a try on the capitals a while back, and they looked spineless and sad: https://github.com/CatharsisFonts/Cormorant/issues/14#issuecomment-216844150 . In that thread, orthoxerox said that ball terminals required recurved arms to look right, which would bring us firmly into the Bodoni territory that we're trying to leave behind.

Cheers, Christian

Christian Thalmann

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Sep 26, 2016, 11:34:56 AM9/26/16
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Admittedly, the ball terminals look less goofy in the lowercase. But don't they still drag the visual impression very much into the direction of Bodoni-style Cyrillic?

Then again, the Ж looks rather weird in the same style. It's an uncomfortable letter for a humanist typeface to begin with, but with ball terminals it looks particularly out of place.

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Christian Thalmann

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Sep 26, 2016, 3:07:35 PM9/26/16
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Alexei, I adopted your дл design and propagated it to related letters, caps, and small caps. It doesn't look as different from the original design as I had feared, so that's all fine with me.

I'm not sure whether the ball-terminal кж work out as well, though:

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Christian Thalmann

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Sep 29, 2016, 2:25:42 AM9/29/16
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On Monday, September 26, 2016 at 9:07:35 PM UTC+2, Christian Thalmann wrote:

I'm not sure whether the ball-terminal кж work out as well, though
 
I suppose that might have been my fault rather than a fault in the fundamental idea. I've tweaked the ball-terminal implementations a bit more, and I'm starting to see their point.

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Christian Thalmann

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Sep 29, 2016, 9:59:43 AM9/29/16
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I still had some issues with the oldstyle б and its rat-tail ascender. The new one is subtly different, but much better IMHO.

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Alexei Vanyashin

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Oct 3, 2016, 1:14:31 PM10/3/16
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Hi Christian, 

The new direction is good. 

Judging from the Google Fonts usage stats, Cormorant Garamond seems much more popular on Russian sites than Cormorant, so the triangular bodies really seem to work. Maybe changing the trapezoids in the regular Cormorant will help it catch up.  :)

Considering the audience of GF my recommendation is to not rely on stats, but focus on making a proper design. From the outset it's the designers responsibility to build trends, and not the other way around.

Descenders of ц: I guess that should be propagated to all similar descenders?

Yes, to цдщ and the somewhat to џ, and the desceneders in extended Cyrillic.


The new teardrop кж work better. 
Here is what needs to be done. The top inner white is too large, so the top arm should be contracted.
For the top arm I would recommend a smoother start with a curve at the bottom.



The top bowl of /з should be contracted





Top pennant in б is too long. In Bold the left extrema point on the bowl should be raised up, cutting the extra black from the bowl. 



/м is off balance. The apex can be moved to the left





The descenders in uc and lc triangular Д are too long. Need to be contracted.












Christian Thalmann

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Oct 3, 2016, 4:56:06 PM10/3/16
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Hi Alexei,

thanks for the feedback. I agree with all of it, but am a bit worried about the кж. Doesn't a double-bend ball-terminal arm look all too Bodoni?

Changed the other glyphs as well. I'm not sure whether I understand the issue with м; it looked fine to be before.


Cheers
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Christian Thalmann

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Oct 13, 2016, 6:39:53 PM10/13/16
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Hi Alexey,

I have propagated the changes (as far as I remembered them) to the Cormorant Italics. Hope it works out!

Cheers, Christian

Alexei Vanyashin

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Oct 16, 2016, 1:01:36 AM10/16/16
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Christian, 

the descenders in Д triangular are still too long. Here are the desired proportions. 

The issue with м lc is it has too much white space in the top triangle, that it would pop out it text. 
perhaps you could contract it. 


 
Are you ready to show me the Italic for a review?



Alexei Vanyashin

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Oct 16, 2016, 1:02:44 AM10/16/16
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I think the new к looks good.

Christian Thalmann

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Oct 16, 2016, 3:58:25 AM10/16/16
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Hi Alexei,

Thanks, I'll address those.

> On 16 Oct 2016, at 07:01, Alexei Vanyashin <a...@cyreal.org> wrote:
>
> Are you ready to show me the Italic for a review?

Sure!

Cheers

Christian Thalmann

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Oct 16, 2016, 12:22:14 PM10/16/16
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As for the м, I made two new versions, one with a raised nadir and one with more tilted sides. Which one works better?

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Alexei Vanyashin

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Oct 25, 2016, 6:48:15 PM10/25/16
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Hi Christian, 

About the м, best would be an intermediate between your existing and raised nadir. 

Here is a review of the Italic. 

I am curious where this design of ґ stems from.
Have you seen this form elsewhere?



Schoolbook ґ



Cormorant-Italic-review.pdf

Christian Thalmann

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Oct 26, 2016, 10:06:35 AM10/26/16
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Hi Alexei, thanks for the feedback!  Questions:

— /ustrait-cy: I made the serif on the descender to match /p/q. What would you suggest instead? A horizontal serif? Something else?
— «Slightly bring in the left shoulder.» Not sure what exactly you mean. Should the whole bottom left structure be nudged to the right, making the glyph narrower? Only the descender? Only the sloping thin stem?
— I don't have precedent for the /gheupturn-cy; it just made the most sense to me like that. The curved bottom left instroke doesn't make much sense in humanist pen logic. I guess I'll use a plain sans stem foot, then.
— /ghemiddlehook-cy, /gestrokehook-cy: If I just slant the Roman form, the serifs will look very out of place in the Italics... I'll try to figure something out.

Cheers!

Christian Thalmann

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Oct 26, 2016, 12:08:04 PM10/26/16
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New version on GitHub. I really hate those slanted /ge derivatives. Any suggestions on how to improve them? Or should I just accept that they're hideous...?

Alexei Vanyashin

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Oct 27, 2016, 10:25:31 PM10/27/16
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Hi Christian, 

See my PDF for more explanations. If a letter is not featured there, it means you have got it right.


On Wednesday, October 26, 2016 at 10:06:35 AM UTC-4, Christian Thalmann wrote:
Hi Alexei, thanks for the feedback!  Questions:

— /ustrait-cy: I made the serif on the descender to match /p/q. What would you suggest instead? A horizontal serif? Something else?

Matching /p /q-serifs is okay. (Didn't notice your p q before). You can also try these handwritten forms:  a loop, or an abrupt upturn






 
— «Slightly bring in the left shoulder.» Not sure what exactly you mean. Should the whole bottom left structure be nudged to the right, making the glyph narrower? Only the descender? Only the sloping thin stem?

See my image in the PDF.  
 
— I don't have precedent for the /gheupturn-cy; it just made the most sense to me like that. The curved bottom left instroke doesn't make much sense in humanist pen logic. I guess I'll use a plain sans stem foot, then.

Cyrillic does not follow the humanist pen logic directly. Link
 
— /ghemiddlehook-cy, /gestrokehook-cy: If I just slant the Roman form, the serifs will look very out of place in the Italics... I'll try to figure something out.

No. Please do not try to reconfigure them out, or reinvent a bicycle here. Although I fancy some of your attempts, this work should have been done better some 70 years ago. These forms in Extended Cyrillic are problematic, since they were introduced by non-type-designer linguists and oftentimes do not have a true natural italic variant. 

Best bet would be to search handwritten schoolbook forms for italic references, or earlier printed examples (if they exist, or for non-invented forms).

I really hate those slanted /ge derivatives. Any suggestions on how to improve them? Or should I just accept that they're hideous...?

You cannot improve them. Understand that they were invented on the field by Soviet(1950-70s) linguists on expeditions to force Cyrillic script in minority languages(Yakut etc.) replacing their indigenous writing or Latin / Arabic. 

handwritten form of ҥ 


As a reference, Old Standard is a true-italic font. No experimentations here. Just slanting. 



 
Cormorant-Italic-review-2.pdf

Christian Thalmann

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Nov 2, 2016, 9:55:43 AM11/2/16
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Thanks! Working on the corrections.

Meanwhile, is this /de-cy better?

And what «corrected layer» in /zhe-cy are you referring to?
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Alexei Vanyashin

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Nov 2, 2016, 11:32:09 AM11/2/16
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I would bend the terminals more. And the stem is not compensated enough in the black master. The start of the stroke looks good

Inline image 1

On Wed, Nov 2, 2016 at 9:55 AM, Christian Thalmann <christian....@gmail.com> wrote:
Thanks! Working on the corrections.

Meanwhile, is this /de-cy better?


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Christian Thalmann

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Nov 2, 2016, 11:34:56 AM11/2/16
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Thanks, I'll revisit the /de-cy. Meanwhile, I've addressed the rest of the previous review; it's on GitHub.

What was that about /zhe-cy, though? I don't have a corrected layer to compare to.

Alexei Vanyashin

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Nov 2, 2016, 11:40:16 AM11/2/16
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What was that about /zhe-cy, though? I don't have a corrected layer to compare to.

in ж you need to retract the two c-shaped forms 15 units inwards. So the widths of ж and ш become similar.  
 
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Christian Thalmann

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Nov 2, 2016, 11:43:54 AM11/2/16
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I'll have to fatten the tops a bit if I want to accommodate a downcurve. Is that really preferable?
Auto Generated Inline Image 1

Christian Thalmann

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Nov 2, 2016, 11:44:40 AM11/2/16
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in ж you need to retract the two c-shaped forms 15 units inwards. So the widths of ж and ш become similar. 

 I did that already. Is it not narrow enough?

Alexei Vanyashin

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Nov 2, 2016, 1:11:47 PM11/2/16
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better. but ascenders are too long now. The black master is getting too fat on the top. 


Inline image 1
My previous suggestion on /д was not accurate. Here is a better reference

Inline image 2

See corrected layer in /ж (Top: original. Bottom: corrected). I have tweeked the width, slants and rotation a tad. 


Inline image 3


м. Bottom - corrected. Minor rebalancing. 

Inline image 4

The tails look uncomfortably short. compare to ц


Inline image 6
б. Bottom - corrected layer. The angle of the pennant is good now. The top spike is too long, and can be mistaken for an unwanted upturn element such as in ґ. You can adjust its length to match your style if you find this too extreme. 

Inline image 7
ДЦЩцщ:
The shoulders of the descending hooks (aka teeth) should be 
aligned with (or higher than) the horizontal guide.



Inline image 8

Inline image 9

Inline image 10

reference

Inline image 11

к there is too much white in the green-tagged area. I recommend a stronger angle of the diagonal stroke. 


Inline image 12

In Bold — the diagonal stem in к is too dark. 
Inline image 13

ѵ izhitsa-cy has slipped away from my attention in the previoes review. A rounder curve would be preferred here. 


Inline image 14
gje-cy.loclMKD should be added. This is unique for Macedonian, not reduplicated in Serbian. 

Inline image 15


These glyphs can be removed: be-cy.loclMKD ge-cy.loclMKD de-cy.loclMKD pe-cy.loclMKD te-cy.loclMKD sha-cy.loclMKD

A more elegant solution would be:

script cyrl;
language SRB;
language MKD;
sub be-cy by be-cy.loclSRB;
sub ge-cy by ge-cy.loclSRB;
sub de-cy by de-cy.loclSRB;
sub pe-cy by pe-cy.loclSRB;
sub te-cy by te-cy.loclSRB;
sub sha-cy by sha-cy.loclSRB;
language MKD;
sub gje-cy by gje-cy.loclMKD


Rainer wanted to implement a glyphs function to reduplicate all SRB locl variants for MKD. But I think this hasn't been done yet. I will get in touch on this. 








On Wed, Nov 2, 2016 at 11:44 AM, Christian Thalmann <christian....@gmail.com> wrote:

in ж you need to retract the two c-shaped forms 15 units inwards. So the widths of ж and ш become similar. 

 I did that already. Is it not narrow enough?

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Alexei Vanyashin

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Nov 2, 2016, 1:18:46 PM11/2/16
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As usual I didn't attach the glyphs file with corrected layers I was referencing.

г ge-cy is very thin. Just a slight increase in the middle will help. 

Orange — glyphs with a 'corrected' layer
Red — need attention, check alignment. 

Inline image 2


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CormorantItalic.glyphs.zip

Alexei Vanyashin

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Nov 2, 2016, 2:02:52 PM11/2/16
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I posted this recommendation on the glyphs forum, and pinged Rainer. 


The loclMDK glyphs you made are unnecessary. Let's hope the SRB/MKD feature generation would be better automated in Glyphs in the feature.

Christian Thalmann

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Nov 3, 2016, 5:53:02 PM11/3/16
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Thanks! I think I addressed all those issues now.

As for the language coding, isn't it safer to keep the loclMKD glyphs so the locl feature can still be generated automatically until the fix is issued...?

I do like the new /de-cy better than the old ones!

Auto Generated Inline Image 1

Alexei Vanyashin

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Nov 3, 2016, 10:20:31 PM11/3/16
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As for the language coding, isn't it safer to keep the loclMKD glyphs so the locl feature can still be generated automatically until the fix is issued...?

Not to worry. This will work fine.

Alexei Vanyashin

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Nov 11, 2016, 5:07:28 PM11/11/16
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Hi Christian, 

I have checked your update. Good job on б,г,ж,ѵ,җ

к: There is too much going on, and the amount of inner white in the bottom may be too much. The two limbs do not have to stem from the same origin point. At the current state this creates a lot of confusion. I suggest trying a different start for the bottom limb that does not connect with the bottom origin point, but starts from the middle of the upper arm. 

Screen Shot 2016-11-11 at 10.19.44 PM.png
Reference


Screen Shot 2016-11-11 at 10.22.14 PM.png
д: need to bring in the ascender more. Gray is original. Blue is my 'corrected' layer.
Screen Shot 2016-11-11 at 10.39.05 PM.png

м: some rebalancing in the Regular. See 'corrected' layer. Bold is fine.

Screen Shot 2016-11-11 at 10.50.41 PM.png




I have a few doubts about the contrast difference in uc and lc. On the other hand this is a deliberate exception. And I am not sure a thin line would be better. 
Screen Shot 2016-11-11 at 10.24.49 PM.png
I made a PR with these changes here.  






Christian Thalmann

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Nov 13, 2016, 5:24:15 PM11/13/16
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Hi Alexei,

thanks for the corrected version; I've accepted the changed glyphs and propagated them to the Bold. Here's my new /ka-cy.

Auto Generated Inline Image 1

Alexei Vanyashin

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Nov 14, 2016, 2:11:01 PM11/14/16
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The changes you made for /д and /м are good. The new junction in /к is also good. However the angle of bottom limb creates an unwanted counter movement that isn't cooperating well with the overall rhythm. I made a PR with a corrected layer for /к. 


Screen Shot 2016-11-14 at 7.44.50 PM.png

On Sun, Nov 13, 2016 at 11:24 PM Christian Thalmann <christian....@gmail.com> wrote:
Hi Alexei,

thanks for the corrected version; I've accepted the changed glyphs and propagated them to the Bold. Here's my new /ka-cy.
Auto Generated Inline Image 1

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Christian Thalmann

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Nov 14, 2016, 2:44:02 PM11/14/16
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OK, pull request accepted and integrated.

Christian Thalmann

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Jan 4, 2017, 2:20:09 PM1/4/17
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Are we done?

I'd like to push for an update of Cormorant on GF soon. Those missing characters in the SC and Unicase cuts are bugging me.

Alexei Vanyashin

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Jan 5, 2017, 11:17:03 AM1/5/17
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On Wed, Jan 4, 2017 at 8:20 PM Christian Thalmann <christian....@gmail.com> wrote:
Are we done? 

I'd like to push for an update of Cormorant on GF soon. Those missing characters in the SC and Unicase cuts are bugging me.

--

On a fresh look I have two design suggestions, and glyph set issues.

1. One step back with the д in italic. 

Screen Shot 2017-01-05 at 5.09.31 PM.png



2. Italic angle in ь and  ъ
Screen Shot 2017-01-05 at 5.05.12 PM.png

3. These glyphs have been removed from GF Cyrillic glyphs set for obsolecy. I recommend removing them. In modern Abkhazian language Ԥԥ pedescedner is used instead.

ҧ pemiddlehook-cy
Ҧ Pemiddlehook-cy


4. These glyphs don't exist in the Bulgarian locale, if you wish to keep them for stylistical reason stylistical sets would be the place. 

Eltail-cy.loclBGR
Imacron-cy.loclBGR
Idieresis-cy.loclBGR
iishorttail-cy.loclBGR, 
eltail-cy.loclBGR 
emtail-cy.loclBGR 

5. Some Cyrillic glyphs are duplicated in two sets. .ss02 and .ss10. 

Afters handling this we are ready to push. 

Christian Thalmann

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Jan 5, 2017, 5:47:38 PM1/5/17
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Hi Alexey,

thanks! I find these /de-cy exceedingly difficult to get right. If I curve the tips downward to imitate /c, I have to adapt the entire arc shape to make it fit. Does this work now?

Auto Generated Inline Image 1

Christian Thalmann

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Jan 5, 2017, 6:47:07 PM1/5/17
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New commit is out.

On SS02 and SS10: Yes, that's intentional. SS10 mirrors the loclBGR; it needs the Trajan-style diagonals from SS02 («Garamond») to match the triangular /De-cy and /El-cy.

Alexei Vanyashin

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Jan 6, 2017, 3:25:46 PM1/6/17
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The updated д,ь,ъ are all good. Let's finalise and push this.



On Fri, Jan 6, 2017 at 12:47 AM Christian Thalmann <christian....@gmail.com> wrote:
New commit is out.

On SS02 and SS10: Yes, that's intentional. SS10 mirrors the loclBGR; it needs the Trajan-style diagonals from SS02 («Garamond») to match the triangular /De-cy and /El-cy.

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Christian Thalmann

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Jan 6, 2017, 5:05:47 PM1/6/17
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Awesome!  :)  Thanks for all your work and patience, Alexei!

Dave, shall I issue a new release? How quickly can we expect an update on GF?

Alexei Vanyashin

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Jan 9, 2017, 5:48:11 AM1/9/17
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Thank you for your work Christian, well done. I recommend Cormorant Cyrillic among GF best examples.




On Fri, Jan 6, 2017 at 11:05 PM Christian Thalmann <christian....@gmail.com> wrote:
Awesome!  :)  Thanks for all your work and patience, Alexei!

Dave, shall I issue a new release? How quickly can we expect an update on GF?

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Christian Thalmann

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Jan 9, 2017, 5:57:57 AM1/9/17
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On Monday, January 9, 2017 at 11:48:11 AM UTC+1, Alexei Vanyashin wrote:
Thank you for your work Christian, well done. I recommend Cormorant Cyrillic among GF best examples.

Thanks, that means a lot to me.  :)

Christian Thalmann

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Jan 9, 2017, 4:50:29 PM1/9/17
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New release out on GitHub.

https://github.com/CatharsisFonts/Cormorant/releases/tag/v3.3

Please update this on Google Fonts as soon as possible...

Christian Thalmann

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Sep 4, 2021, 5:40:18 PM9/4/21
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Hi Alexei,

hope you had a nice vacation! :)

Google Fonts is waiting to ingest a new version of Cormorant. It's ready from my side, but I'd like to make sure we're done with the response to Ilya's review. Are you OK with the current version? (Last thing I did was to change the /Che-cy/, as discussed in the Ysabeau Cyrillic thread.)

Cheers, Christian

Алексей Ваняшин

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Sep 9, 2021, 5:51:30 AM9/9/21
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Hi Christian, 

I will look into your project early next week, I am finishing another review this week.

And yes, thank you, my hiking trip was great!



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Алексей Ваняшин

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Sep 16, 2021, 3:24:30 AM9/16/21
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Christian,


Let's summarize our response to Ilya's review:
 
The different form of the б — in Roman, it rather corresponds to didones than to old-style serifs. 

— we are mixing styles intentionally, there is no historical accuracy in the brief. 

For some reason, Garamond’s Cyrillic у has a different descender terminal compared to the Latin y.

— intentional and acceptable

That said, in both italics the form of б is the same and complies with the upright б from Roman.

— let's add /be-cy.ss02/ to italic for consistency, the contrast in the top pennant would be similar to this:

Screenshot 2021-09-16 at 09.59.00.pngScreenshot 2021-09-16 at 09.58.55.png

Letters Ии, м in Garamond have a different form, which is rather typical for earlier type styles, reminiscent of capital Latin writing.

— that would be a feature. Again, historical accuracy isn't intended. 

Чч have evidently different character in various cases and styles, the most relevant is the lowercase letter in Roman and Garamond.
In Cormorant Roman, the arc of the uppercase Ч has thickness distribution atypical for an old-style serif.

— I am happy with the Чч as long as they relate to the curve in /h

Screenshot 2021-09-16 at 10.01.22.png
example:
Screenshot 2021-09-16 at 10.03.42.png

Uppercase and lowercase Тт have different vertical serif forms in both Roman and Garamond. Moreover, vertical serifs are different in lowercase т and ъ.

— fixed



There are more issue I found:

de-cy.ss11 feels uncomfortable for this style. What was your intention?
Screenshot 2021-09-16 at 10.11.56.png

I can understand shorter descenders in Д compared to Ц. 
But I suggest to make descenders in De-cy.loclBGR the same length as in De-cy
Screenshot 2021-09-16 at 10.14.39.png






Christian Thalmann

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Sep 16, 2021, 9:59:50 AM9/16/21
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Hi Alexei,

The different form of the б — in Roman, it rather corresponds to didones than to old-style serifs. 

— we are mixing styles intentionally, there is no historical accuracy in the brief.

«Mixing styles intentionally» sounds unnecessarily much like a haphazard potpourri to me. Instead, we settled on two distinct styles with internally consistent design goals:
  • Default Cormorant makes concessions to the pointed-pen origin of the Cyrillic alphabet, departing from strict old-style tradition to allow for more recognizable and «comfortable» forms for Cyrillic readers.
  • Cormorant Garamond, in contrast, leans into the dramatic monumental old-style flavor of Trajan etc. and welcomes triangular counters and elegant pointed apices at the cost of conformity to Cyrillic expectations.
In either case, we chose each individual form to best fit our design goals rather than restricting ourselves to pre-packaged historical solutions.


For some reason, Garamond’s Cyrillic у has a different descender terminal compared to the Latin y.

— intentional and acceptable

Agreed.

 
That said, in both italics the form of б is the same and complies with the upright б from Roman.

— let's add /be-cy.ss02/ to italic for consistency, the contrast in the top pennant would be similar to this:

Screenshot 2021-09-16 at 09.59.00.pngScreenshot 2021-09-16 at 09.58.55.png

OK, I'll look into it.
 
Letters Ии, м in Garamond have a different form, which is rather typical for earlier type styles, reminiscent of capital Latin writing.

— that would be a feature. Again, historical accuracy isn't intended.

I would use «conformity» rather than «accuracy», since the latter implies we aimed at historicity and missed...

 
— I am happy with the Чч as long as they relate to the curve in /h

Screenshot 2021-09-16 at 10.01.22.png

Should the joint be thinner in the /che-cy/, then?


There are more issue I found:

de-cy.ss11 feels uncomfortable for this style. What was your intention?
Screenshot 2021-09-16 at 10.11.56.png

I kept that form as an alternate because I very much like it, even though everybody tells me it doesn't work for Cyrillic readers. I guess I should finally delete it. :(

 
I can understand shorter descenders in Д compared to Ц. 
But I suggest to make descenders in De-cy.loclBGR the same length as in De-cy
 
OK, will do.

Cheers, Christian

Christian Thalmann

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Sep 16, 2021, 11:41:04 AM9/16/21
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New version is up on GitHub. Do these work?
Screenshot 2021-09-16 at 16.22.07.png
Screenshot 2021-09-16 at 16.19.48.png

Алексей Ваняшин

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Sep 16, 2021, 12:49:28 PM9/16/21
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On Thu, Sep 16, 2021 at 6:41 PM Christian Thalmann <christian....@gmail.com> wrote:
New version is up on GitHub. Do these work?


On Thursday, September 16, 2021 at 3:59:50 PM UTC+2 Christian Thalmann wrote:
Hi Alexei,

The different form of the б — in Roman, it rather corresponds to didones than to old-style serifs. 

— we are mixing styles intentionally, there is no historical accuracy in the brief.

«Mixing styles intentionally» sounds unnecessarily much like a haphazard potpourri to me. Instead, we settled on two distinct styles with internally consistent design goals:
  • Default Cormorant makes concessions to the pointed-pen origin of the Cyrillic alphabet, departing from strict old-style tradition to allow for more recognizable and «comfortable» forms for Cyrillic readers.
  • Cormorant Garamond, in contrast, leans into the dramatic monumental old-style flavor of Trajan etc. and welcomes triangular counters and elegant pointed apices at the cost of conformity to Cyrillic expectations.
This in turn adds more character and individuality to the Cyrillic part, rather than yet-another-Garamond/Trajan. 
I like the style-flexibility of the shapes.
 
In either case, we chose each individual form to best fit our design goals rather than restricting ourselves to pre-packaged historical solutions.
 


For some reason, Garamond’s Cyrillic у has a different descender terminal compared to the Latin y.

— intentional and acceptable

Agreed.

 
That said, in both italics the form of б is the same and complies with the upright б from Roman.

— let's add /be-cy.ss02/ to italic for consistency, the contrast in the top pennant would be similar to this:

Screenshot 2021-09-16 at 09.59.00.pngScreenshot 2021-09-16 at 09.58.55.png

OK, I'll look into it.


Screenshot 2021-09-16 at 19.42.26.png

 
 
Letters Ии, м in Garamond have a different form, which is rather typical for earlier type styles, reminiscent of capital Latin writing.

— that would be a feature. Again, historical accuracy isn't intended.

I would use «conformity» rather than «accuracy», since the latter implies we aimed at historicity and missed...

 
— I am happy with the Чч as long as they relate to the curve in /h

Screenshot 2021-09-16 at 10.01.22.png

Should the joint be thinner in the /che-cy/, then?


Your updated version on github looks good to me.  




There are more issue I found:

de-cy.ss11 feels uncomfortable for this style. What was your intention?
Screenshot 2021-09-16 at 10.11.56.png

I kept that form as an alternate because I very much like it, even though everybody tells me it doesn't work for Cyrillic readers. I guess I should finally delete it. :(
 

I see. You will like this book then. It has a lot of similar Cyrillic brush-pen forms:

This form potentially could work as a /б with a longer pennant but in a different font :)


 
I can understand shorter descenders in Д compared to Ц. 
But I suggest to make descenders in De-cy.loclBGR the same length as in De-cy
 
OK, will do.

Cheers, Christian

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Christian Thalmann

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Sep 24, 2021, 8:49:51 AM9/24/21
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Hi Alexei,

I imported your «like so» version into Glyphs to compare to the current version, and I saw almost no change. The flag just seemed to be raised by a few units compared to the previous version... in any case, does that work now?

Looks like we're ready to ingest, otherwise.

Cheers, Christian
Screenshot 2021-09-24 at 14.47.29.png

Christian Thalmann

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Oct 4, 2021, 6:18:11 PM10/4/21
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Looks like we're ready to ingest, otherwise.

Well...?  🤨

Алексей Ваняшин

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Oct 5, 2021, 4:05:29 PM10/5/21
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On Friday, September 24, 2021 at 3:49:51 PM UTC+3 christian....@gmail.com wrote:
Hi Alexei,

I imported your «like so» version into Glyphs to compare to the current version, and I saw almost no change. The flag just seemed to be raised by a few units compared to the previous version... in any case, does that work now?

Looks like we're ready to ingest, otherwise.

Yes, this is fine. We are ready for the update. 


Christian Thalmann

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Oct 5, 2021, 4:28:47 PM10/5/21
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Fantastic! I've alerted the Google folks. Thanks for your time Alexei! :)

Christian Thalmann

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Apr 1, 2022, 3:20:39 PM4/1/22
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Hi Alexei,

I changed the style of /i-cy/ and /yi-cy/ from the Latin /idotless/ to something more like a smallcaps /i/ on the suggestion of someone on TypeDrawers. Now it turns out most typefaces apparently stick to the Latin /idotless/ form... Should I go back to that?

I also equalized the height of the dots in the two letters; I suppose that's a good change in any case.

(The same goes for Ysabeau)
Screenshot 2022-04-01 at 21.20.10.pngScreenshot 2022-04-01 at 12.16.33.png


Cheers, Christian

Alexei Vanyashin

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Apr 2, 2022, 5:59:10 AM4/2/22
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пт, 1 апр. 2022 г., 22:20 Christian Thalmann <christian....@gmail.com>:
Hi Alexei,

I changed the style of /i-cy/ and /yi-cy/ from the Latin /idotless/ to something more like a smallcaps /i/ on the suggestion of someone on TypeDrawers. Now it turns out most typefaces apparently stick to the Latin /idotless/ form... Should I go back to that?

I would go back to the Latin i.



I also equalized the height of the dots in the two letters; I suppose that's a good change in any case.

How does ïï look in Ukrainian?


(The same goes for Ysabeau)
Screenshot 2022-04-01 at 21.20.10.pngScreenshot 2022-04-01 at 12.16.33.png


Cheers, Christian

On Tuesday, October 5, 2021 at 10:28:47 PM UTC+2 Christian Thalmann wrote:
Fantastic! I've alerted the Google folks. Thanks for your time Alexei! :)

On Tuesday, October 5, 2021 at 10:05:29 PM UTC+2 a...@cyreal.org wrote:
On Friday, September 24, 2021 at 3:49:51 PM UTC+3 christian....@gmail.com wrote:
Hi Alexei,

I imported your «like so» version into Glyphs to compare to the current version, and I saw almost no change. The flag just seemed to be raised by a few units compared to the previous version... in any case, does that work now?

Looks like we're ready to ingest, otherwise.

Yes, this is fine. We are ready for the update. 


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Screenshot 2022-04-01 at 21.20.10.png
Screenshot 2022-04-01 at 12.16.33.png

Christian Thalmann

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Apr 8, 2022, 10:42:39 AM4/8/22
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Hi Alexei, I have a ligature for ïï. Cheers, Christian
Screenshot 2022-04-08 at 16.42.26.png

Christian Thalmann

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Apr 8, 2022, 10:44:19 AM4/8/22
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Oh, this is the Cormorant thread... I have a kerning exception there:
Screenshot 2022-04-08 at 16.43.38.png

Alexei Vanyashin

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Apr 8, 2022, 10:47:26 AM4/8/22
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Usually this ligature is more compact - the spacing between the base glyphs. The accents can be smaller. 

пт, 8 апр. 2022 г., 17:42 Christian Thalmann <christian....@gmail.com>:
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