Visual pairing of different language typefaces

adamwhite · September 22

I noticed this unusual trend of pairing different language fonts, but with the primar goal to pair other language typefaces with Latin script. It is mostly done by pairing visual structure of Arabic with Latin.

As it is not enough that Arabic is already downgraded to a quasi-Arabic, which was made with trying to produce Arabic script in the way Latin movable type works, now in the addition, they are making it even more Latin with an excuse of a visual harmony.

It is the amount of nonsense, as in the case when you would try to pair Gothic Fraktur with Helvetica, or Penmanship cursive with Graffiti tags style. You can play and continue with multiple nonsense combinations like this.

Harmonizing text in the way with pairing visualy compatible scripts is an another story, but this imperialistic tendencies are really going too far.

For the Arabic users there, I would just say, admit that you hate yourself and your heritage and just start using Latin script or Arabizi, but leave the Arabic script alone. If you are so lazy to understand that you don't know anything about your own language, don't pretend you care. Almost every Arabic typeface designer outthere is a delusional person, thinking doing something professional or beneficial. It's like on the AA meeting. You first need to admit that you have a problem, and than to start with the treatment.

Life is short to cudle your ego. Latin script designers are not so far away, still living in the reference to the movable type era, but at least they didn't masacre the script so much. For sure they are not trying to "harmonize" it with Chinese, Arabic or Hindu.

Let us awake from this nightmare and start changing the world.

John Savard · September 23

Obviously, there will be cases when two different languages appear on the same page. Techniques and practice exist to improve the visible appearance of text in this condition. That, in itself, is legitimate. But attempting to Latinize wildly different scripts, such as the Arabic script, or the Chinese script, or Hangul, for example, is not an appropriate means to that end at all.

It's not just disrespectful to another (or one's own) culture, it isn't even possible to do that successfully (that is, for the purpose of a typeface used primarily for reading as opposed to an amusing display typeface). And when body copy from two different languages is being mixed, I presume we're talking about both languages being readable, which leaves simulation faces out of consideration. Of course I can point to a host of typefaces that make the Latin alphabet look sort of like the Arabic script, like Devanagari, like Hebrew, and especially like Chinese, these being so common that there's even a name for them, "Chop Suey fonts", but they're not used to harmonize text in the Latin alphabet with another language being used together with it, and it would be equally silly to do the same in the other direction.

Instead, visual harmonization properly involves things like choosing weights for the typefaces used for the languages involved that avoid an excessive contrast.

Experimenting with changing the form of a typeface without violating the character of the underlying script to achieve harmonization with another language is also a legitimate endeavor, but it's not a standard practice. While Latinization of diverse scripts is rightly rejected, this doesn't mean that creative experimentation should be inhibited either: it's important to find a balance here.

adamwhite · September 23

Optical kind of harmonization which you mention could be maintained as long as it doesn't violate the structure of the script. We already do that with font pairing, but only choosing fonts which optically harmonize and not variating its weight and structure. I was talking about "latinizing" Arabic, which is already "latinized".

You can see multilingual fonts which does this, and always with the latin version as the base reference. It's kind a OCD tendency as well, since it would be like an example of interior design where a designer would try to strip each element design in the room, trying to pair it with the table structure or similar, instead of actually harmonizing it properly.|

If the language script changes through time, as the language does, it's another story, but enforcing certain practices and especially presenting quasi forms of historically proven froms is wrong, and liberate manipulation. People can accept it because of ignorance, desire, interest, etc. but as well people can object to it, tell the truth, confront the ones doing it. The silence of knowlegable is what gives the space for the corrupted and ignorant to grow.

John Hudson · September 24

cf. Titus Nemeth’s critical history of harmonised type design and typography.

Simon Cozens · September 24

Or Borna Izadpaneh's ATyPI Paris talk: same topic, more fire.

adamwhite · September 24

Yes these are interesting.

@Simon Cozens It's not the quite same topic, same topic would be with the video:

There is nothing Arabic about the Arabic script.

Borna Izadpaneh is "crying out" to Apple and Microsoft which is a decades made mistake. They don't care unless most of the users make requests. Educating users, and refuting quasi products is the way to progress.
Creating own solutions as well. It is 2025, no one should wait Microsoft or Apple to make moves.

Professor Milo is making one mistake, with always presenting ACE with Arabic script (for which it was initialy created), so people understand it as only Arabic solution, which is not.

On the other hand, most of the Arabic users when you talk to them on the subject, just fail to realize or don't care. They are indoctrinated and colonized, so they can't even count as Arabic users. Many of them mock Fusha (classical Arabic), so what to say about their script interest.

In any case the way to progress is getting away from the reference to a movable type era and realizing all languages scrips with more depth.

I can't wait ACE being opensourced or not, so I started with few projects which I hope will solve some issues.

One is using existing engines for the proper layout of latin text, which coresponds InDesign engine features and other is a foundation for a custom engine to produce unicode only for base characters and rendering of graphemes by the text context. Suitable for all languages. Character created with svgs, pngs, SDF and MSDF within Web GL rendered canvas.

Soon as I get my MVP to certain point I will publish about it. I invite all interested developers to join or to start with their own projects. I will probably opensource my projects, and maybe commercialize certain branch of it in the certain niche.

Until today I don't understand why Decotype needs so much time or resources to opensource their project. So far they could just publish the source code, but I don't know the details on their circumstances. I didn't push this question in my dialogue with professor Milo.

In any case, multiple different solutions can exist. For me personally rendering fonts made with segmented characters like in ACE is troublesome for the future typeface designs.

Khaled Hosny · September 24

Instead of insulting Arabic designers and Arabic script natives over and over again, together with the patronizing and orientalist tune, maybe you should try to actually familiarize yourself with Arabic script, its history, its typography and typographic history, and the work of contemporary Arabic type designers. You sound very clueless, fighting windmills, and over all ignorant of the actual issues that is facing Arabic script and typography today.

adamwhite · September 24

@Khaled Hosny Oh here comes the shame. You are saying that I speak with patronizing and orientalist tune, while my main subject is refuting orientalist amateur products like todays "Arabic script" (not an Arabic script).

You are trully an interesting man. First of all, I am "instulting" (telling the hard to accept truth) designers of "Arabic scripts" and not Arabic designers. Big difference. It doesnt't have anything to do with being Arab or not. As well I am "insulting" Arabic speakers/users and not only Arabic script natives. Arabic script natives mostly are not even pure Arabic script natives, but 'amiyah natives, but I wouldn't go so far into language and social trends today. I say that because, people who don't care about fusha much, are the ones who don't care about proper script for sure.

You said:

"maybe you should try to actually familiarize yourself with Arabic script, its history, its typography and typographic history, and the work of contemporary Arabic type designers."

I mean you could apply for a standup comedy, since all of my current and past talk on the subject is a call to returning to Arabic script, its history, its typography and typographic history, against the contemporary "Arabic type (not Arabic) designers". There is no such thing as Arabic type designers except Thomas Milo and Maryam Somers. In parallel there are some awesome calligraphers, and what is left are designers of quasi Arabic lying themselves.

My statement doesn't mean that designer of Arabic script must produce only standard traditional forms, but it means if he/she produces it as quasi forms following, the quasi Arabic (Euro-Arabic) movable type abomination , then it's a disaster, worthless trash even all major companies would appreciate it, etc.

Just recently there are some works similar to proper Arabic script (like yours), but just not there yet since the whole tech foundation is not ment to work with it.

You positioned yourself by staying indifferent or silent, so you now you don't want to open a chapter where you will loose the status. You can be compared to a front-end developer, raised on frameworks and libraries who is convinced that UI can't stand on the grounds of the only way which it is right to stand on, which is a clean html+css production, because if admiting the reality such will loose the ability.

Simon Cozens · September 25

adamwhite said:
You are trully an interesting man.... I mean you could apply for a standup comedy

Argue vociferously if you want, but there is absolutely no need to make it personal. That's just rude.

adamwhite · September 25

@Simon Cozens Tell that to the person made it personally. You maybe live in the delusional enviroment where I am being rude for refuting someone being rude to me and more than that.

If the other person took it personal and came with such a response (full of contradictions and concoctions to digress from the real problem), than that is rude.

It's a comedy they are pretending doing something valuable or not making a damage to whole culture and a language group. It's a comedy that they don't feel any shame for what are they doing.

It is a comedy that this man came with an statement "Instead of insulting Arabic designers and Arabic script natives over and over again, together with the patronizing and orientalist tune", while the whole point of my message is against the orientalist tune, which he is a part of.

Sorry it's not a comedy, it's a tragedy. Standup comedy is a fiction to make people laugh, while oposing the truth and keeping with a false narative, just to keep own status is a war against the certain culture, in this case the culture of Arabic language, script and its haritage. It stops being ignorance, when a person is warned, educated about and invited to change false views.

Paul Hanslow · September 25

This thread is becoming toxic with personal attacks so I’m closing it for the time being until a full assessment can be completed.

Visual pairing of different language typefaces

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