Favorite typefaces to study or reference — or consider a model/guide?

Adam Ladd
Adam Ladd Posts: 270
edited April 23 in Technique and Theory
[I asked this in a confusing way in a different post, so I'm trying to be clearer here... thanks to all who commented]

I'd like to hear what are some of your favorite typefaces to reference or study? I know this is wide-open with lots of variables and alternative forms depending on the design and goal.

But to put it this way (and I hope this makes more sense)... If you were trying to help someone refer to some quality designs in various genres that they can study and learn from, what might be some you like? 

Not to copy, but can at least give them a good "control" reference to help not stray too far when developing their own design. Typefaces that might be considered well constructed, and a good or reliable or widely accepted design to refer to with how they drew the characters.

(Just Latin right now, but ok if includes broader support.)

Comments

  • Kent Lew
    Kent Lew Posts: 987
    Matthew Carter’s Miller Text has always been one of my bedrock references for solid design and fitting.
  • Nick Shinn
    Nick Shinn Posts: 2,265
    edited April 22
    It was a long time ago, back in the 1980s, that I first became deeply interested in the designers behind typefaces and their process. The types that most impressed and influenced me were Souvenir, Palatino and Goudy Old Style, for their unique personality and the subtlety and style of their drawing and drafting (and no doubt punch-cutting, in the case of Palatino). So: Benton/Benguiat, Zapf/Rosenberger and Goudy. But since then, what I study and reference has changed with each design I do, so I cannot really recommend anything in particular—in fact, if one is studying a genre, then study the entire genre, not just one putative exemplar.

    My current project is a Garalde revival from the 17th century, so I have been looking at 20th century “Garamonds” for perspective, and to see how they have handled the characters missing from my source material.
  • Adam Ladd
    Adam Ladd Posts: 270
    Some others mentioned in the other post: Minion 3, Brill, Kennerley Old Style, Times New Roman, Century Old Style.

    [These answers had more context, but trying to capture here simply in case I delete the other, more confusing post]
  • Serif
    Minion, GuardianText, Cartier, Utopia, Gentium, Brill.

    Sans
    Myriad, Calibri, Avenir
  • Mikhail Vasilev
    Mikhail Vasilev Posts: 45
    edited April 26
    I assume the talk is about general purpose / text fonts. Otherwise there will be too many options.
    If I'd have to pick one single font,  it will be Times New Roman. As I mentioned in previous thread, the reason is its outstanding legibility and no contenders I see so far. And as its "predecessor" in this category - Century Old Style.
    But in general, there are many high quality fonts. I'd recommend to look into Matthew Carter's fonts, if you seek clean and consistent design in different genres. His Tahoma as an excellent example of original but still very practical highly readable sans font, and that is worth a lot. Balance between originality and practicality is probalby the hardest task in font design.
  • Drawcard
    Drawcard Posts: 73
    edited April 27
    It probably depends a lot on what kind of typeface you want to design, and that will dictate what other similar designs you might decide to study.

    These days I'm often referencing Inter, which is a pretty robust & full featured typeface: https://github.com/rsms/inter (Sans-serif)

    Other ones I like to check (if I'm working on a glyph I haven't encountered before):
    Playfair: https://github.com/clauseggers/Playfair (Serif)
    Public Sans: https://github.com/uswds/public-sans (Sans-serif)
    IBM Plex: https://github.com/IBM/plex (Multiple varieties) - good for studying international languages as well as Latin

    I've linked to the Github repos for these, because you can often find the source files (usually .glyphs format) which you can open up in Glyphs and see how they're built. Many other Google Fonts are also available by searching in Github, if you want to study a particular one.

    Otherwise I also suggest getting a copy of Karen Cheng's "Designing Type", 2nd Edition - which takes a deep dive into common Latin glyphs, comparing them across many well known typefaces from over the decades.




  • John Savard
    John Savard Posts: 1,167
    If I'd have to pick one single font,  it will be Times New Roman. As I mentioned in previous thread, the reason is its outstanding legibility and no contenders I see so far. And as its "predecessor" in this category - Century Old Style.

    All right, I'm a little confused. Century Expanded could be seen as the predecessor of Times New Roman, as a very popular general typeface for body copy.
    But Century Oldstyle?
    Century Oldstyle is a revised take on Alexander Phemister's oldstyle typeface for Miller and Richards. I think that Alexander Phemister's original typeface is indeed worthy of study, and it was used quite widely in its day.
    Century Oldstyle was important enough to get taken up by ITC, but I think that both Century Expanded and Phemister's original have it beat, so I'm suspecting a mix-up here. But, not being a professional type designer myself, I could be mistaken, and perhaps indeed Century Oldstyle really does have greater significance and merit than I suspected.
  • Mikhail Vasilev
    Mikhail Vasilev Posts: 45
    edited April 27
    If I'd have to pick one single font,  it will be Times New Roman. As I mentioned in previous thread, the reason is its outstanding legibility and no contenders I see so far. And as its "predecessor" in this category - Century Old Style.

    All right, I'm a little confused. Century Expanded could be seen as the predecessor of Times New Roman, as a very popular general typeface for body copy.
    But Century Oldstyle?
    Century Oldstyle is a revised take on Alexander Phemister's oldstyle typeface for Miller and Richards. I think that Alexander Phemister's original typeface is indeed worthy of study, and it was used quite widely in its day.
    Century Oldstyle was important enough to get taken up by ITC, but I think that both Century Expanded and Phemister's original have it beat, so I'm suspecting a mix-up here. But, not being a professional type designer myself, I could be mistaken, and perhaps indeed Century Oldstyle really does have greater significance and merit than I suspected.

    I admit I can be wrong at giving historical dates here. By "predecessor" I meant two things, firstly, Times New Roman (if beleive Wikipedia) is younger than most of Century variations. Some statements in Wikipedia are confusing for me, about which font is modelled after which and it may be opinionated.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Century_type_family
    The title at the specimen says "Century types from the ATF specimen book, 1912." From this very specimen I see that Century Oldstyle is very different, so they picking the font name using Century is confusing on its own. So I conclude Times New Roman is ca. 20 years younger than Century Oldstyle.
    And secondly, if we take lowercase letters only, Times resembles Century Oldstyle much more than other fonts of that era.
    Besides, I am not much into historical aspects, and only judge the look and readability of text specimen. What I see is that these two fonts stand out of the croud in this regard, and have similar features (in lowercase).
    Also I don't have any idea about how many materials were printed using Century Oldstyle at the time.
    Just as a matter of fact, asian fonts SimSun and MSMincho have Century Oldstyle (kind of lighter weight) as Latin set in them. And it can be seen  basically everywhere in China and in markings on goods. And it's interesting how it happened.
  • Mark Simonson
    Mark Simonson Posts: 1,749
    Century Oldstyle was important enough to get taken up by ITC
    Pretty sure that never happened. 
  • Mark Simonson
    Mark Simonson Posts: 1,749
    When I look at other typefaces as models or guides, it will completely depend on the design I'm working on, and it will be in the context of design questions I'm thinking about to see how others handled them in similar typefaces. I don't really think of any particular faces as "ideals" or "exemplars" as such.
  • John Savard
    John Savard Posts: 1,167
    edited April 28
    Just as a matter of fact, asian fonts SimSun and MSMincho have Century Oldstyle (kind of lighter weight) as Latin set in them. And it can be seen  basically everywhere in China and in markings on goods. And it's interesting how it happened.
    Um, no.

    Here's Century Oldstyle, from the 1923 ATF specimen book:
    And here's the same text in SimSun:
    The difference between them is much more than the latter having a lighter weight; the unique flared capital T is not present in SimSun, if nothing else.

    Century Oldstyle was important enough to get taken up by ITC
    Pretty sure that never happened. 
    I'm afraid you're mistaken. I found several results for "ITC Century Old Style" in Google Books. However, I did not find it in a cursory search of the issues of U&lc that are available online, so it appears to have been a late addition to their lineup.
    I've now verified that at least one of the Google Books results is definitely not an artifact due to jumping across columns; the book "Carnets de villes" by Claude Eveno claims to have been typeset in ITC Century Old Style.
    However, my memory was faulty in at least one respect; ITC Century Old Style is not mentioned in what I thought was the source were I heard of it - and my search results are sufficiently sparse that even though some of them seem to be real, it could still be that the ones I've found are somehow in error, so I can't be definitely sure that you are mistaken after all.




  • the book "Carnets de villes" by Claude Eveno claims to have been typeset in ITC Century Old Style.

    Yes, but that’s simply a mistake on the side of the book’s editor. That book was typeset by Néo-Typo in Besançon, France – just like four other books that mention “ITC Century Old Style” in their imprint. The books do use a Century Old Style, but the “ITC” prefix was added in error.
    ITC did have an adaptation of Century (Expanded), not Century Old Style: named ITC Century, it was announced for September 15, 1975 in U&lc, vol. 2 no. 3.
    U&lc, vol. 22 no. 1 lists “the complete collection of ITC typefaces as of May 22, 1995” (a year after the first two books set by Néo-Typo were published). No mention of an “ITC Century Old Style”.

  • Jens Kutilek
    Jens Kutilek Posts: 366
    edited April 28
    When referencing Times as a model, you need to be aware of some things:

    • Times was designed with technical limitations, i.e. the 18 unit system of the Monotype machines (Times New), and the duplexing of Regular/Italic and Regular/Bold on Linotype machines (Times). I don't know off the top of my head if both versions share the limitations of both technologies, and if that has changed substantially in the digital versions. I assume they were digitized from photo typesetting masters, not from the original lead type.
    • As the digital Times is a system font, many extensions to the glyph sets have been added by less than experienced people. But looking at the basic Latin design, as @Adam Ladd described, should be safe.
  • Kent Lew
    Kent Lew Posts: 987
    The original Times New Roman for Monotype under Stanley Morison’s direction would not have been constrained by Linotype requirements. Morison had no allegiance to Linotype. Only after the design gained popularity and Linotype users clamored for it and Linotype arranged to introduce Times New Roman for use on its machines, then the design was adapted for duplexing of the styles, as necessary.
    So, depending on which source(s) were used, various photo and digital versions will display differences accordingly.
  • John Savard
    John Savard Posts: 1,167

    U&lc, vol. 22 no. 1 lists “the complete collection of ITC typefaces as of May 22, 1995” (a year after the first two books set by Néo-Typo were published). No mention of an “ITC Century Old Style”.

    I believe you. My memory was faulty, and the evidence I could find through Googling was so sparse as to make the possibility that I was only picking up a few accidental erroneous references highly likely.
    Century Oldstyle was picked up by others during the phototypesetting era as well as the digital era, thus, for example, Alphatype had a version, so it was pretty popular. In his book Phototypography, Allan Haley expressed his love for Century Oldstyle, and it was my faulty memory of that book that led me to think there was an ITC version.


  • The difference between them is much more than the latter having a lighter weight;
    Yes, I meant to say the shapes are based on Century Oldstyle, not a direct copy of course.