Diacritics size on capital vs Lowercase in Vietnamese

hanoitype
hanoitype Posts: 2
in Technique and Theory
Hi all, I am making a Vietnamese typeface which has fat and wide Capital letters, and I am struggling with the size of the diacritics. I have read Vietnamese Typography guidelines by Donny Truong but it does not have a reference that I can apply in my case. The diacritics I made looks great on a lowercase letter (e.g: ô ), however when put on the capital (Ô) it looks way too small. Making the diacritics bigger to accommodate the fat wide capital letters will lead to leading issue.

Do you guy have any suggestion or if you can let me know of any typeface that is similar to my design (with diacritics), that would be really appreciated! Thank you in advance!
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Comments

  • John Hudson
    John Hudson Posts: 3,230
    I would experiment with a set of .cap variant diacritic marks that are wider but not necessarily taller than those use on the lowercase letters (indeed, they could be squat: wider but shorter).
  • Nick Shinn
    Nick Shinn Posts: 2,216
    It’s OK to make capital diacritics wider/shallower, in general, not just for Vietnamese.
    When you create a separate set of diacritics for capitals, name them .case
  • Igor Freiberger
    Igor Freiberger Posts: 280
    I adopt this approach.


  • Erwin Denissen
    Erwin Denissen Posts: 302
    Given that your typeface features fat and wide capital letters, it’s crucial to design separate marks for uppercase and lowercase letters.

    Ensure that your diacritics follow the correct glyph naming conventions. For instance, if you've created a composite glyph using circumflexcomb and gravecomb, name it circumflexcomb_gravecomb. Create mark variants with a .case suffix (e.g., gravecomb.case) specifically for uppercase usage. These .case diacritics should have their top anchor vertically positioned at the CapHeight or slightly above, depending on the visual balance required for your capitals. This ensures that the diacritics are sized and positioned appropriately for uppercase letters while avoiding leading issues.

    By using this approach, you maintain clarity and functionality across both uppercase and lowercase letters in your Vietnamese typeface.
  • hanoitype
    hanoitype Posts: 2
    Thank you guys very much for your advice!
  • John Hudson
    John Hudson Posts: 3,230
    When you create a separate set of diacritics for capitals, name them .case
    I wouldn’t do that. The .case suffix may be used to automatically add these mark glyphs to the <case> OpenType Layout feature code, but that feature is for all-caps text setting variants such as raised parentheses, etc.

    If you want the cap marks to be applied in dynamic mark layout—as distinct from just using them in pre-built composites—, you want them to be contextually substituted for the regular marks, usually in the <ccmp> feature, when they occur after capital letters (I tend to use them also above ascenders, to conserve height). I use a .cap suffix, but really any identifier is possible so long as it enables you to quickly identify the whole set and doesn’t automatically map the glyphs to some inappropriate layout feature.
  • Nick Shinn
    Nick Shinn Posts: 2,216
    I recommended .case because FontLab uses it to make accented caps when those character cells are activated—a time-saver.
  • Denis Moyogo Jacquerye
    Denis Moyogo Jacquerye Posts: 197
    Alternatively, shorter caps can be used as well for accented letters with accents that need a lot of space.
    It's not that popular, mostly because it's extra work, but does work well sometimes.
  • John Hudson
    John Hudson Posts: 3,230
    FontLab uses it to make accented caps when those character cells are activated
    Also seems to work with .cap
  • John Hudson
    John Hudson Posts: 3,230
    Using shorter caps, as Denis notes, is an option, but it is one that I would probably only use if I had to work within restricted vertical metrics for some technical reason. They tend to look a bit odd in text and draw attention to themselves.
  • Ray Larabie
    Ray Larabie Posts: 1,436
    If you're creating a compact display typeface, consider looking to Vietnamese signage for creative ideas for how to crush the living hell out of those capital accent stacks.
  • Johannes Neumeier
    Johannes Neumeier Posts: 381
    Denis Moyogo Jacquerye said:
    Alternatively, shorter caps can be used as well for accented letters with accents that need a lot of space.
    It's not that popular, mostly because it's extra work, but does work well sometimes.
    I've seen instances of this for display fonts where you want very snug line height. Maybe not applicable in every case, but a nice touch in some designs.

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