Bainsley

I have been working on a sans serif typeface, the current working title is 'Bainsley'.  It started out as Cadman but I was struggling to get the look I wanted so I lifted a set of Numerals, a to z and A to Z from another font (after asking permission of course) and from that point on I made very good progress.
The italic, bold and bold italic are not yet ready to preview.
As it stands at the moment the upper case doesn't really harmonise with the lower case so I am thinking of rounding off a few corners on the upper case.
Any comments, suggestions or criticisms would be most welcome.

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Comments

  • Christian ThalmannChristian Thalmann Posts: 1,379
    I lifted a set of Numerals, a to z and A to Z from another font (after asking permission of course)
    It would still be nice to mention which font that is, though. :grimace:
  • Paul MillerPaul Miller Posts: 195
    I was hoping there would be some speculation as to which typeface it was as they have been modified a bit.  It would heve been quite amusing but I guess that is a non starter now.
    The typeface I lifted the letters and numbers from is Eau de Garamond (Ysabeau).

  • Jacob CasalJacob Casal Posts: 90
    edited June 4
    It feels a bit odd with /8 pinching itself while /6, /9, and /e are more open. It also seems odd that the /§ (neat as a direction as it may be) stands out stylistically from everything else with its squared-off spines. Maybe round it a little more alongside your capitals, or add more of a blend between rounded and angular forms in general to deviate further from the font it was derived from (unless it already has deviated a lot from the font pulled from).
    Edit: Ah, I should have checked for updated comments before posting. The /§ does feel out of place though. To my eyes at least.
  • Christian ThalmannChristian Thalmann Posts: 1,379
    I was hoping there would be some speculation as to which typeface it was as they have been modified a bit.  It would heve been quite amusing but I guess that is a non starter now.
    Sorry, that didn't look like a call for speculations.
    As for the sample: It has definitely changed a lot from Ysabeau, I probably wouldn't have noticed the lineage myself!
    I like the general look of it. It's friendly and cuddly. I like the generous /a/ and how other letters refer to it.
    I'm getting a strong vibe of inconsistency, though. There's a lot of ideas in individual letters that don't seem to be supported by the rest of the typeface: The extreme thinning in /K/, for example, or the gap in /e/. There's some weight inconsistency as well; e.g., the /H/ feels lighter than the following /I/, and the /O/ than the preceding /N/. The descenders also don't seem to agree on a descender depth.
    On the individual glyph level, /U/, /W/, and /w/ feel too wide and /R/ and /Y/ too narrow to me. The /e/ looks too small for some reason.
    The tail of /q/ doesn't work for me either, but I believe that's an American thing, so it might look more normal to Americans? In any case, it attaches too much weight to the descender in my opinion; I'd make it more subtle.
  • Craig EliasonCraig Eliason Posts: 891
    /Q/ tail is fussy and out-of-character. Serifs on cap /I/J/ also seem out of place given the simple roundedness of everything else. 
  • Hrant H. PapazianHrant H. Papazian Posts: 1,517
    Charming!

    I would not descend the "f".
  • Paul MillerPaul Miller Posts: 195
    Charming!

    I would not descend the "f".
    Thank you,
    I would.
  • Hrant H. PapazianHrant H. Papazian Posts: 1,517
    It's certainly pretty, but can throw a wrench in reading.

  • Paul MillerPaul Miller Posts: 195
    /Q/ tail is fussy and out-of-character. Serifs on cap /I/J/ also seem out of place given the simple roundedness of everything else. 
    The Q tail was a little over the top, I like it though, however perhaps not in this font.
    The crossbars on the I are to distinguish it from numeral 1 and lower case L.  The crossbar on the J is to be consistent with the I.  However they do need a little rounding off.
  • Paul MillerPaul Miller Posts: 195
    I like the general look of it. It's friendly and cuddly. I like the generous /a/ and how other letters refer to it.
    I'm getting a strong vibe of inconsistency, though. There's a lot of ideas in individual letters that don't seem to be supported by the rest of the typeface: The extreme thinning in /K/, for example, or the gap in /e/. There's some weight inconsistency as well; e.g., the /H/ feels lighter than the following /I/, and the /O/ than the preceding /N/. The descenders also don't seem to agree on a descender depth.
    On the individual glyph level, /U/, /W/, and /w/ feel too wide and /R/ and /Y/ too narrow to me. The /e/ looks too small for some reason.
    The tail of /q/ doesn't work for me either, but I believe that's an American thing, so it might look more normal to Americans? In any case, it attaches too much weight to the descender in my opinion; I'd make it more subtle.
    There is a little inconsistency but this is a first iteration.  I have tried to even out the weights and gaps a little.
    I agree the /K/ seemed like a good idea at the time but I will have to tinker with it to make it fit in a bit better.
    The tail of the /q/ isn't an American thing, it's a handwriting thing.  The way I scrawl the /q/ always gets a little upward flick of the pen just as the pen is lifting from the paper.  It's how I was taught to write and has become a habit.  Also the tail helps distinguish the /q/ from a mirrored /p/.  This is irrelavant to most people but to people who have dyslexia it helps legibility.  I have decreased it somewhat in the next iteration.

  • Paul MillerPaul Miller Posts: 195
    It feels a bit odd with /8 pinching itself while /6, /9, and /e are more open. It also seems odd that the /§ (neat as a direction as it may be) stands out stylistically from everything else with its squared-off spines. Maybe round it a little more alongside your capitals, or add more of a blend between rounded and angular forms in general to deviate further from the font it was derived from (unless it already has deviated a lot from the font pulled from).
    Edit: Ah, I should have checked for updated comments before posting. The /§ does feel out of place though. To my eyes at least.
    /§/ It seemed like a good idea at the time to have a little diagonal square with curves coming off the top right and bottom left sides.  I still think it is a good idea but you are right it doesn't fit the font very well, I will have to tinker around with it a little and see what I can come up with.

  • Christian ThalmannChristian Thalmann Posts: 1,379
    The tail of the /q/ isn't an American thing, it's a handwriting thing.  The way I scrawl the /q/ always gets a little upward flick of the pen just as the pen is lifting from the paper.  It's how I was taught to write
    And the way I was taught to write, the /q/'s offstroke starts at the baseline (or at least follows the stem up until about there).

    That flick from the descender line is very alien to my eyes, but I've seen it a lot in American designs.
  • Paul MillerPaul Miller Posts: 195
    The image in my last but one post was inserted as an attachment.  Is there any way of controling this or is it that images over a certain size get attached rather than inserted?
  • Christian ThalmannChristian Thalmann Posts: 1,379
    It looks like you're using subtle flaring in /T/, /i/ — might that be a solution for your capital /I/, instead of the serifs? I agree with Craig that they go against the cuddly feel of the typeface, even when rounded.
  • Jacob CasalJacob Casal Posts: 90
    edited June 4
    I have the upward offstroke at the lowest point of the /q’s descender in my handwriting as well, however that is for a “regular” /q, for a cursive /q I was taught as Christian illustrated (whether with a looping or straight descender). Perhaps try rounding the left point of the descender and let the offstroke taper to be a little more pointy (like the pointyness of your /t or eye of the /e).
    I liked the idea of the first /§ as well, so maybe store it away to be refined for another project. :)
    You may want to check /P and /R as well. I agree with Christian about the /I and /J.
  • Paul MillerPaul Miller Posts: 195
     You may want to check /P and /R as well. I agree with Christian about the /I and /J.
    What is wrong with the /P/ and the /R/ ?
  • Paul MillerPaul Miller Posts: 195
    I see I still have a lot of work to do.
    I need to get a form of rounding off the capitals which will not look like serifs and will not look like the lower case.  I will have a play and try out a few ideas.
    I will get back to you guys when I have something worth looking at.
  • Paul MillerPaul Miller Posts: 195
    The latest iteration has flares added to the Upper case but I feel like it's moving away from the direction I wanted to go in.  The upper case is starting to look a lot like Friz Quadrata.  The section sign has been re done with a circle in the middle instead of a square but it has lost it's character, this one looks like just about every other section sign. :(

  • Christian ThalmannChristian Thalmann Posts: 1,379
    You don't necessarily need flares everywhere, just where you would have had serifs before. Would that look weird together with unflared caps?
    The /M/ now looks less confident with the round apices IMHO.
    Looks like your descenders are more consistent now, but /f/ is still going only half way.
    The half-vertical sides of /V/W/Y/ strike me as at odds with your other diagonal letters. Something continuous like the sides of /A/ might work better for those. /V/Y/ still look too narrow and /W/ too wide (or too hollow?).
    If you're going for a humanist touch, how about turning the one-sided flares of /v/w/ on the right-hand stem inside rather than outside?

  • Paul MillerPaul Miller Posts: 195
    Yet another iteration.  This looks a lot better.  However the rounded lower case still doesn't sit well with the squared off upper case.
    How big can a serif be before a sans serif font becomes a serifed font?
    I will continue to tinker.
  • Hrant H. PapazianHrant H. Papazian Posts: 1,517
    Paul Miller said:
    How big can a serif be before a sans serif font becomes a serifed font?
    "The gods refuse to answer. Because the gods do not know."
    – WAD
  • Jacob CasalJacob Casal Posts: 90
    What is wrong with the /P/ and the /R/ ?
    The lobes just needed a little adjustment of the narrow space under their counters, looks like you got it. Yes, you needn’t go completely circular with the section sign, the first iteration felt off from the rest of the typeface, but the second a better direction for further refinement. Examine similar curve situations on letters such as /B, /D, /E, /G... You may be able to pull off some of the pointed-then-curved situations like the tops of /B, /D, and /E.
    As for solving the disparity between uppercase and lowercase, which is currently closer to the look you are going for, or perhaps what aspects of each seem strongest towards the look you seek, if you can say. Maybe try the same point then curve technique I mentioned to other uppercase letters such as /M, /V, and /W, as that happens a lot in your lowercase and could take some squareness away without being too rounded (as per the lacking confidence of the previous /M).
  • Paul MillerPaul Miller Posts: 195
    This iteration more closely resembles what I was after.  I have rounded the ends of the upper case but not enough to count as a bone serif.  Any comments, criticisms or suggestions would be most welcome.
  • Christian ThalmannChristian Thalmann Posts: 1,379
    The few sharp horizontal cuts in the lowercase would probably also profit from some subtle rounding.
    How about trying a /q/ tail with the weight and size of the /l/ tail?
    If you want the typeface to be widely usable, I'd at least offer a «tamed» stylistic alternate with a closed /e/, a fully descending /f/, and tailless /q/.
    As for the /section/, I find the square counter charming, but the overall size and width of the glyph is rather puny. In my experience, stacking two staggered /S/ is a good starting point to get the proportions right.
  • Craig EliasonCraig Eliason Posts: 891
    /K/ tapers too thin in the middle. 
    I agree with Christian's advice on the /q/. 
    I don't agree, though, that a descending /f/ need to go full depth. 
  • Paul MillerPaul Miller Posts: 195
    I was thinking of a stylistic alternative with two storey /a and /g so I could include a closed /e and /ə in that.  The /f will remain as it is or maybe a little more descent (but not full depth) because I like it that way.
    I will tinker about with the /q tail and see what looks appropriate.
    The /K does need 'something' but at the moment I don't know what 'something' might look like.
    I will try to come up with some alternatives.

  • John SavardJohn Savard Posts: 425
    I find this typeface to be one that breaks new ground, entering into the gap between conventional sans-serif and Roman typefaces on the one hand, and overtly calligraphic typefaces on the other, so I applaud the experimentation.
  • Paul MillerPaul Miller Posts: 195
    I find this typeface to be one that breaks new ground, entering into the gap between conventional sans-serif and Roman typefaces on the one hand, and overtly calligraphic typefaces on the other, so I applaud the experimentation.
    Probably the reason this breaks new ground is that I'm an Electronics Engineer not a typographer.  Kelvinch was my first font ever.  Basically if you don't know what you are doing you can do anything you like without following the rules.
    Munson was because I wanted a decent quality free Clarendon and there wasn't one, and Cadman started out as SIL's Andika font but modified to include all the tips for legibility from the book 'Reading Letters' by Sofie Beier and also taking advice from a friend and a colleague who are both dyslexic on what works best for them.
    Typey McTypeface was just a joke and those are all the fonts I've ever done.
    Of course I work on CAD systems both mechanical and electronic CAD but typography is just a hobby. :)
    Anyway I have tinkered with the /K a bit and come up with a possible Kandidate which fits the aesthetic quite well.


  • Hrant H. PapazianHrant H. Papazian Posts: 1,517
    edited June 6
    Paul Miller said:
    Probably the reason this breaks new ground is that I'm an Electronics Engineer not a typographer.
    Indeed, formal education in any field is a two-edged sword.

    Reminds me of @Christian Thalmann, an astrophysicist by training, who didn't take long to produce fascinating designs the infillers can't manage in decades.

  • John SavardJohn Savard Posts: 425
    edited June 6
    The link to Typey McTypeface was garbled, and therefore led to an ad site instead; here is the correct link.
    Munson is the typeface for which I've been looking for ages!
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