Quador – a squarish serif

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Comments

  • Arne FreytagArne Freytag Posts: 53

    In the sample above I replaced the teardrops with rectangled terminals to go further with the idea of a squarish serif. What do you think?


  • It works well IMHO — though not necessarily better than the teardrops; it's mostly a flavor rather than a quality decision.

    I like what you did with the new /g. Maybe the ear could be turned a bit more horizontal to match the new style? Currently it seems to be pointing downwards.

    I also notice some inconsistencies in stroke widths on this example. The thick stroke of /y is fatter than anything else, whereas the /o feels very light. The flag of /r might also benefit from some more weight.

    Your replacement of ball terminals suspended on thin curves with solid flags now shifts the perceived contrast philosophy away from vertical and more towards the humanist philosophy. I'm wondering whether that line of thinking could be taken a little further. Might it be possible to introduce some diagonal stress to the /o as well...?
  • Arne FreytagArne Freytag Posts: 53

    Yes, I think it goes a little further in another direction and I´m comfortable with it. You were right, especially with /y and I ask myself, why didn´t I see that? Here is the first version of Upper- and Lowercase:


  • Craig EliasonCraig Eliason Posts: 617
    My eye catches on the top right corner of /e/--it's too dark. 
  • Christian ThalmannChristian Thalmann Posts: 948
    edited May 31
    Weight distribution within letters looks better now. Maybe /s is still a bit light? At least in «Ishtu» it looks that way to me. The crossbars of /t and especially /f could also use a bit more heft.

    Those top serifs on /l etc. look a bit awkward to me now; they look like the stem has just been bent around. Maybe shift the apex of the top curve onto, or closer to, the stem axis? The issue is still present, though less pronounced, with /u. In /n etc., the form works well because it is balanced on the other side.

    Are the flat-topped minuscules (/v/w/x/y) a bit too low compared to the x-height implied by the other letters?

    Spacing issues: Way too much space between /q/u, left sidebearing of /p seems a bit wide too, whereas /o/o feels a bit tight. Is /V/a a bit overkerned...?
  • Arne FreytagArne Freytag Posts: 53

    Thanks, Christian, especially for the „bent around“ top serifs, that was right. I don´t care so much on Kerning for the moment, I will do it properly later.


    How is it about the Cyrillic caps, does that work?


  • Doesn't look too bad at first sight.  Be sure to read this, though:

    http://leksandra.livejournal.com/115861.html

    Among other things, it tells you that /Д/Л should never be thick in their left vertical «stem».

    My own (non-native) impressions:
    • The raised arms of /К/Ж look gooey and feeble. I'd suggest introducing more contrast (thinner diagonals, heavier flag terminal) and less curviness. Leksandra recommends not using a doubly-bent design except for a Modern.
    • /O and /C feel a bit wide, especially the latter (this might also affect the Latin).
    • /Ш and /Щ are way too narrow.
    • /Ф looks too small and too dark. Make the bowl wider, thin the serifs, and give the vertical stem some overshoot (not enough to be obvious).
    • The stress on /Я looks reversed. It's not just a mirrored /R, it has to respect the pen logic to some degree. I know it's difficult, but you have to try. :#
  • /Я doesn't really have to respect the calligraphic principles, just like /Ж doesn't. There's a very nice Ladoga font where they do, but I wouldn't recommend it for a regular typeface. Everything else that Christian's said is 100% correct.

    /П is a bit wide, /Ц and /Ю as well. I think it's the very rectangular negative space that causes that in the first two.

    The upper half of /З is too small. The difference in size should only be obvious when you turn the letter upside down, like /B or /S. I would tune the balance of /Б a tiny bit as well.

    I really like your /У.

    Do you plan to draw Serbian, Macedonian, Belarusian and Ukrainian letters?
  • Arne FreytagArne Freytag Posts: 53

    The site of leksandra was a good advice. How is it working now?

    @Samuil: Serbian, Macedonian, Belarusian and Ukrainian letters maybe later, I’m not so sure in the moment. What do you mean with „ I would tune the balance of /Б a tiny bit as well.“ ?


    Meanwhile I started with tabular figures and tosf. (The eight is always the hardest part for me)


    Does /Germandbls /Schwa /schwa /eth look right to you?


  • Ori Ben-DorOri Ben-Dor Posts: 121
    Speaking of the 8, I think it would benefit from pulling down a little the left belly of the bottom bowl.
  • /Я doesn't really have to respect the calligraphic principles, just like /Ж doesn't.

    Let me rephrase that, then... The /Я almost never truly follows calligraphic principles because it's designed with Modern vertical stress in mind; true humanist stress would demand a thin diagonal leg, which would look stupid.

    Still, my impression is that most humanist fonts at least try to minimize the conflict, rather than just flipping the /R. Arne's previous /Я had reversed diagonal stress in its bowl, which looked very odd to me. He's toned it down to vertical stress now, which I find much more fitting.

  • Christian ThalmannChristian Thalmann Posts: 948
    edited June 2
    Arne: I think /Л needs a heavier foot. The thinness requirement is mostly about the top part of the left stem. The /Ш and /Щ still look much too wide to me.

    While I like spurless /ß, I think a spur would be appropriate for a strongly serifed face such as this. The top half is also a bit inelegant; maybe rein in the top right curve a bit?

    Your /Germandbls follows the design principle I prefer for my own typefaces, but I would make the top arch rounder and reduce both intrusions into the counter space from the right side (make the diagonal steeper and move the foot to the right).

    The schwas look good to me. The top of /ð is perhaps a bit weak and doesn't reach to the left far enough:

    http://66.147.242.192/~operinan/2/2.11/2.1.4.eth.htm

    Figures look quite pleasant. The /7's crossbar is a bit heavy, and I would give it a horizontal foot sole in the lining version.
  • Kent LewKent Lew Posts: 638
    Regarding your Schwa/schwa, here are some Azerbaijani test words for you to evaluate them in context: GƏLƏCƏK Əsasən Ədəbi maneə edərək

    And some Tatar for Cyrillic context: БИЗӘЛГӘН ТӘЭСИР

    You may find that the top of your capital Ə does not extend quite enough and leaves too much of a hole.
  • @Arne Freytag I tried to say that the upper part of /Б is a bit too short. The new /Л looks better, but I agree, the leg should fill out a bit at the bottom to match /К and /Я.
  • Arne FreytagArne Freytag Posts: 53
    Understood, thanks Samuil!

    Another Question: How do you make the spacing for numerators, denominators, superiors and inferiors? Some do all proportional, or all tabular and some make superiors and inferiors proportional but .numr and .dnom tabular. What is right?
  • Jasper de WaardJasper de Waard Posts: 207
    Think about how they would likely be used, try out how proportional and tabular variants look, and make up your mind. I think proportional probably makes more sense, but these things differ per typeface, and depend on your taste. 
  • Arne FreytagArne Freytag Posts: 53

    This is the first draft of the bold version. In the moment I don’t pay so much attention on the exact weight. More or less bolder can be adjusted later. But – what do you think about contrast and shapes?




  • Ori Ben-DorOri Ben-Dor Posts: 121

    More or less bolder can be adjusted later.

    You mean by extra/interpolation?
  • Arne FreytagArne Freytag Posts: 53
    Exactly
  • Ori Ben-DorOri Ben-Dor Posts: 121
    To me it makes more sense to settle on the desired weight first, since extra/interpolation doesn't always give perfect results, especially extrapolation. Of course that doesn't mean you're committing to that weight forever, but this approach may spare you some laborious refining work later.
  • Arne FreytagArne Freytag Posts: 53

    No, I won't make an extrapolation. My plan was to draw an ExtraBold as well, use it as a master and then interpolate to adjust the weights, if necessary. It’s just for finetuning.

  • I really like your new /a!

    The Bold is also shaping up nicely. Maybe the tail of /g and the serifs of /s and /z could use some more weight? And the tails of /y and /Q are currently a bit spaghettiesque; they could use a bit more contrast.

    The top serif of /l etc. in the Bold still retains a bit of the problem I pointed out last time. Perhaps try a more pronounced apex rather than the current plateau? (That might really just be a matter of taste.)
  • Arne FreytagArne Freytag Posts: 53

    Upper- and lowercase Cyrillic: 

    I’m not used to read Cyrillic, so I would like to ask the experts if this looks right to you,  especially /be-cy?




  • Chris DrabschChris Drabsch Posts: 73
    edited June 14
    Warning: My knowledge of Cyrillic is limited to late night sessions of Stalker: Shadow of Chernobyl and Metro 2033... 

    Generally those letterforms look really nice to me. I wonder if the /б looks a tiny bit too thick on the downstrokes & upstrokes? And maybe a slightly deeper shoulder could help as well to differentiate it from a /6 :


    From: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Be_(Cyrillic)

    Edit: Actually a good test would be to type a few /6 and /б in a row to tweak the subtle differences.


  • I'm curious about this as well so I went and did some studying. One thing I notice is that the /бcy is a little narrower than /6, and also has a slightly higher bowl. Having a little inverted serif on the arm of the /бcy could be a good visual marker too.

    Some examples for inspiration: 





  • Christian ThalmannChristian Thalmann Posts: 948
    edited June 14
    For some reason I'm getting a strong «all caps» feeling from this. It might be the super-high x-height, but maybe also the stark difference between the heavily serifed letters like /н and the serifless organic forms of /a/e/c etc. I wonder what /н would look like compared side-by-side with /n? Perhaps the serifs on the former could be reduced just a bit, especially in the middle where they almost touch.

    As for the shapes, I pretty much have to reiterate my previous comments on the capitals. The /ш/щ are extremely much too narrow, and /л needs a left foot that can keep up with the weight of the bottom serifs. The /т strikes me as quite narrow, and the back-swept serifs of /к are irritatingly inconsistent with all other serifed letters.

    The calligraphic onstroke of /р feels a bit at odds with the flat capital-style serifs of the other lowercase letters. I recommend differentiating between /er-cy and /p, giving the former a flat serif. Here's what that looks like in Cormorant:

    The /б looks extremely tall compared to everything else. Maybe you could lower the bowl and bring down the flag a bit.

  • Arne FreytagArne Freytag Posts: 53
    @Chris: Thank you for help and research!

    @Christian: Concerning the heavily serifed letters: I see what you mean, but how would you reduce the serifs? Only the width? In the moment they have the lowercase serifs and are not modified.  

  • Arne FreytagArne Freytag Posts: 53
    Maybe the /б looks so tall because of the high x-height, but I think it's better now?

  • Chris DrabschChris Drabsch Posts: 73
    edited June 14
    That's a big improvement in my eyes!

    Nice design in general too, I like seeing this one coming together.

    My $0.02 about the serifs - make a second component glyph for them and take a little colour out of them by tapering them more for these smaller characters. I think if you just scale them alone they'll look a bit funny.
  • Arne FreytagArne Freytag Posts: 53
    I agree with you both, that for example the /en-cy looks a little strange and heavy beside the /n. And as I said I'm not a native Cyrillic reader, but: Wouldn't it be inconsistent to change the serifs only in some Cyrillic lowercase characters? Here are examples of Noto Serif and Lora with same serifs:


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