Diversifying TypeDrawers

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  • Too many sweeping generalizations make a discussion go nowhere, which makes it impossible to reach a definite agreement on any subject.

    So… would the women (or anybody) please answer the clear questions asked by Chris Lozos? Otherwise this discussion is getting ridiculously long and tiresome. (Wait, it already did… 4 pages!)

    Chris Lozos' questions again:

    Are women being attacked at type conferences? Is it by type related men?
    What are the circumstances we should watch out for to be in a position to help?
    Can we organize an escort plan to be sure women are not so open to abuse?
    Can we get together and devise a defense plan?
    Are women prevented from becoming part of the type industry due to gender?
    How does this manifest itself?
    Are there organizations or companies that seem to show this behaviour? Can we boycott them?
    Are women in the type industry being overlooked for promotion? Can we devise a plan to help them?
    Is there a pressure for sexual favors in the workplace?

    John, sure, suppose a particular act someone calls out is not actually racist. Would it really be so bad for me to just not argue with them this one time?

    Yes, it's wrong to be so afraid to offend someone that you don't help them see when they are wrong, and maybe mature in the process. This "fear to offend" and exaggerated sensibility is getting ridiculous in our world today…
  • Nick ShinnNick Shinn Posts: 1,435
    edited August 2015
    We all would rather discuss who is right/wrong than do anything.
    That’s social media.

    Many posts back I suggested practical, systemic actions that could be taken to increase female participation in type conferences and at typeDrawers.

    We are designers, let’s design solutions, not obsess over the semantic nuances of rights vs. privileges, and who is most hard done by.

    So tell me my suggestions are workable—or crap, in which case suggest something better.
  • Chris LozosChris Lozos Posts: 1,154
    Yes, Ramiro, I quite agree, all I am saying is that while we are hard looking at the privilege of "Men", let us not forget that Black Men" are also "Men" Hispanic Men are also Men, Gay Men are also men, Native American men are also men, Arabic men are also men, Transgender men are also men, Handicapped men are also men, Chronically ill men are also men.  Amputee Men are also men.  As long as we refuse to differentiate between all men and privileged men, we are perpetuating a stereotype and alienating potential allies. The truly privileged men are laughing at our petty squabble and enjoying how it takes us away from solving the real problem. Again, rather than pointing the finger at all "Men", let's all get together and define what we all can do to solve the problems that face all of us.  Inaction is to be complicit. Let's all act.
  • Yªssin BªggªrYªssin Bªggªr Posts: 73
    edited August 2015
    I am trying to understand, I am listening, I am supporting but none of that will solve the problem.


    For some or all of the men in the industry to be sympathetic or accept that they are privileged is nice and all but all it does is make them look like nice guys.
    Acknowledging privileges is not about sympathy. It is not about looking like a nice guy. That is YOUR perception.

    It is about framing the problem properly. You cannot look for solutions before you understand the problem properly.

    All your examples about finding practical solutions are about individual behavior. Understanding and acknowledging privileges is important because it shows you understand the problem it is not only about individual [sexist/racist/…] behavior, but structural, hence structural solutions are also needed.

  • John HudsonJohn Hudson Posts: 1,659
    Yup, Victoria and Elizabeth, I don't at all disagree, and when I see or hear someone making an unreasonable claim I try to imagine what might have prompted them to do so, because reasonableness isn't always a reasonable assumption given the circumstances in which many people are forced to live.

    I'm just wary of what sound like absolute statements, and there's a difference between saying 'I don't need to engage with this' and saying 'I have no grounds to on which to disagree with this'.
  • John HudsonJohn Hudson Posts: 1,659
    I want to draw a bit more attention to the article on privilege to which Elizabeth just linked, because it is really very good:
    http://everydayfeminism.com/2014/09/what-is-privilege/
  • For the millionth and final time 'privileges' ≠ privilege

    Sorry. I pluralized "privilege" with various types of privilege in mind (white, male, educated, …). Don't know if that really makes sense, english is not my usual language.

  • Chris LozosChris Lozos Posts: 1,154
    We are answering all of your questions, you're just disagreeing with the answers.

    I just can't see how you have answered any of my questions.  I understand that bias for any reason is an integral part of our society and has been since the beginning of time.  I understand that our way of life is controlled by the privileged few.  I understand that there is a hierarchy of privilege. If I begin to understand that we are ALL in some way more privileged than some others, fine.  I understand that we need to redistribute the privilege so that it equally applies to everyone without putting ourselves as the model for others to follow.  I can agree that I have been more privileged [as you define it] than some others [but also less privileged than many others].  I also know that I am the only one who can know the degree of privilege I have been bequeathed ["walk a mile in another man's moccasins" Black Elk Speaks]. To my perception, that is damn little.  My question to you is [since I can't go back in time and donate my privilege to someone more needy than I was at the time] what can I concretely do about it now? As I said early on, I cannot change the past so please enlighten me as to I can change the present? Maybe I am just old and of no value to your cause but I don't think so and would like to hear what to do NOW. I would gladly surrender all of my privilage if everyone one else would do the same.  No oppressor will ever do this because it is in their nature to only take.  Tell me what to do now?
  • Chris LozosChris Lozos Posts: 1,154
    The assumption that we are arguing about something in the past also completely misses the point. This is very much present-day America.
    That is not at all what I meant. I am quite aware that bigotry and bias are alive and well in America today.  What I meant was that I could not go back in time and prevent the murder of Dr King, or the MyLai Massacre [even though I was just 3 miles from it when it happened]. To look for a way to do this would not be of service.  What WOULD be of service is to address head on the individual problems that we do face TODAY. Let's get together and fix it instead of just nodding approval that it is out there?
  • Bogdan OanceaBogdan Oancea Posts: 11
    edited August 2015
    Not trying to come up with excuses for him, but maybe the guy was just trying to be funny?
  • Chris LozosChris Lozos Posts: 1,154
    "okay, ladies, it's time for the men to talk about type."
    Did you confront him then and there? I hope so.

  • Nick ShinnNick Shinn Posts: 1,435
    edited August 2015
    I'm not keeping tally, but the men seem to be un-diversifying this thread, as is their wont.

    We are all well-meaning and just want to understand our privilege better, demonstrate how empathetic we are, and explain the issues to those of our peers who don’t get it, as we have been encouraged to.

    But we won’t shut up.

    That is why I have suggested caps and incentives.

    Already there are limits to the time during which one can edit one’s post, so why not a limit to the amount men can post?

    And/or, rewards for women who reach a certain post target?

    Perhaps you think I’m being silly, but I sincerely believe that it’s impossible to get men to back off from opinionating by attempting to educate us and asking us to behave better—we will just query why we need to be asked.





  • Opining, Nick?
  • Chris LozosChris Lozos Posts: 1,154
    OK, Nick. I will shut up until I hear an actual attempt at strategy to solve the problem--so far not a hint.
  • Bogdan OanceaBogdan Oancea Posts: 11
    edited August 2015
    Ray, I think what you're saying in the first part of your response is a classic case of introducing a supplemental condition in the mix ("But what if you're at a funeral… would you be so insensitive to say such and such?"), then extending the obvious conclusion ("No, I wouldn't") for this special situation to all "normal" situations.
    Well, of course if such a person who's unjustifiably complaining about racism just lost someone in the family I would refrain from irritating them by saying "Nah, having to wait in line isn't racist, man! Grow up!". But other than special situations like these, I think it's oversensitive to not call out people on their oversensitivity.
  • The intent was to illustrate that there are times when it's within your rights, but not socially okay to ask questions.
  • Bogdan OanceaBogdan Oancea Posts: 11
    edited August 2015
    The intent was to illustrate that there are times when it's within your rights, but not socially okay to ask questions.

    Glad you're explicitly saying that. Some people would take what you wrote as the general rule, not as the exception.

    But this oversensitivity problem isn't the main thing… what i would ask is this: after many decades of feminism, aren't there books(?) to teach women how to best react to "bullies" and situations like the ones described by Dyanne Sawyer? How to outsmart them and put them in their place? Frankly, I'm surprised the main advice here is just "Accept there is a problem" and "Be on our side" – most of us here accept there is a problem already (although like I said, some people are more sensitive than others, and some problems are imaginary). Anyway, since obviously a "bully" won't kindly take your advice to be nice, inclusive, to not be offensive and to even apologize (come on…), how do you react best to change such people for the better or at least change situations? Are there helpful books like "Bullies" by Ben Shapiro?

  • Ray LarabieRay Larabie Posts: 903
    edited August 2015
    We're not powerless. The general public can't post here without an account. We have moderators that can deal with problems, effectively silencing people if they feel they need to. The rest of us can bury posts with abuse flags. 

    "Accept there is a problem" and "Be on our side" put into action.

    It's not like a fanciful pipe dream that we'll never be able to accomplish. All it takes is a little vigilance, the collective ability to identify the types of posts we don't want here and a couple of mouse clicks.
  • Ben BlomBen Blom Posts: 235

    What’s missing here in most suggestions for change, is SMARTness.

    For instance, what to do with the suggestion “Check your ego”? I guess most contributors here have a bigger than average ego. Should they not speak their mind? Should we be less welcoming to them, in order to be more welcoming to new voices and new points of view? What about big female egos?

    For those who feel I acted like a jerk when writing the above lines, I do apologize.

  • Robin MientjesRobin Mientjes Posts: 129
    edited August 2015
    SMARTness? Ray just mentioned it, Indra, Dai, Jackson, Elizabeth have all been saying it: we can take action, by calling out unacceptable behaviour. The forum technology supports it, and our ability to speak up enables it.

    Even assuming nobody here is to blame for any misogyny, racism, or any other form of discrimination, does not automatically remove the problem or the responsibility. Like in the subway, when you see something, say something. Need more specific, measurable, assignable, realistic suggestions? Because that one is pretty solid.
  • Ben BlomBen Blom Posts: 235

    I am a human being. Please do not assume that my skin color, my gender, my age, my nationality, my weight, what I do in my bedroom, whether I have children or not, whether I have a disability or not—is relevant for participating here.

    For those who feel I acted like a jerk when writing the above lines, I do apologize.

  • Chris LozosChris Lozos Posts: 1,154
    edited August 2015
    I hope this resonates with the fathers out there
    When our first child was tiny, I had her strapped on my chest proudly in her Snugly and went out for a walk.  Beaming Papa that I was, I walked past two young men who laughed at me and made jokes about me. Sure, I was angry at them, but inside I knew there was no happier moment so far in my life than having my squirming baby so close to me.  Those guys didn't know how wonderful I felt.
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